More neck angle problems

[Regis]

A couple months ago I posted question about neck angle and since then I'm on the 4th violin with 130mm neck and low angle. Am I looking at this wrong and missing something? Here is a pretty descent old German trade violin. The bridge and ff holes appear to be in the right location.

Should I take something else into consideration before just cutting into and resetting the neck?

At this rate, I'll be (or should be) an expert restting necks by next New Years day!

Thanks,

Regis

[Fellow]

I read somewhere (a luthier's book 0f 1889 W. Oaks ? )that you don't know what the neck angle

should be until you know how high the bridge and that you don'r know how high the bridge until you have tried your violin (get the tone you want) then re-work the neck. In short, he did not use measurements. He used trial and error. I don't know if his way makes sense to experts here. I love to hear your comments.

I am sorry, you do have intention to reset the neck after

reading your post more carefully.

[Michael Darnton]

This one's a perfect opportunity for a simple pull-up. Everything's not too bad, except (referencing the position of things as they are in the photo) the bridge is too low and the nut too high. I'd just crank the neck back until the bridge height is right. Given how close things are, it would be a bit of a shame (as well as a pain) to mess with that original over-the-edge neck set.

[Oded Kishony]

I would also like to note that there are 'standard' measuring procedures. 'projection is measured by laying a 6" ruler at the peak of the f/b and measuring at the bridge position

The F/B above plate is not a useful measurement , the acceptable measurement for 'appui' or overstand is from the top of the plate to the joint of the fingerboard and neck.

Neck length is measured from the top edge of the plate to the joint of the nut and fingerboard.

Oded

[Regis]

This FB projects to 21mm at the bridge. The overstand is 5.5mm. Neck, measured from the 'edge' of the plate to the top of the FB/nut is 127+mm. I have been measuring from the rib/plate intersection to the top of the nut.

Thank you,

Regis

[Michael Darnton]

I'd pull up the projection to at least 26mm, if you can get it there. That should be fine.

[Jacob]

Michael's advice is exactly what I would do with that type of neck and with an overstand of 5.5mm, but I would also look at the saddle height. The angle of the strings behind the bridge looks quite severe, and getting the saddle height to about 7mm or even a bit higher, when it is probably in the region of about 5mm (in my experience with that type of instrument) has a marked impact on tone and response.

[Michael Darnton]

I'll agree with that.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Am I seeing the fingerboard correctly in your photo? Looks like the bridge end is a good bit thinner than the nut end? It looks like it might be a little short as well, although that's hard to tell from a photo.

If so, you may want to consider replacing the board before pulling up the neck... or at least take this condition into consideration when you do the pull-up.

[Michael Darnton]

I considered this, but put a straightedge on your screen and you'll see that it's an old-style board, tapered upwards on the underside, from the bottom of the neck to the end, so I don't think a new board would be any different, and might even be worse, if I read the current board right.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Yup. I think you're correct. Still looks a little short to me.

[Fellow]

Mr. Darnton,

When you say pull-up , do you include putting a slim (small piece woor wedge) between the neck and fingerboard. ( I cannot stop my curiosity) If not, why not? Thank you.

[Regis]

What is difficult to see in the photo is that the FB is 2 layers. The top 3mm of the FB is ebony glued on top of another piece (4mm).

[Michael Darnton]

By pull-up, I mean loosening the edge of the top in the upper bout, cranking the neck and upper block back, and putting a small shim in the slit that opens up at the bottom of the neck/edge of top junction.

Now that you point that out, Regis, I think you should give it a bit of a pull-up, and set it up baroque, with all-gut strings, in the hopes of finding a period player who'll like it. There aren't a whole lot of violins around still retaining this stuff, and affordable (baroque musicians are notorious for not having enough money to buy the baroque violin they really should have).

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Regis;

Unless you wish to keep the existing 2 pc. fingerboard, you may want to consider changing it in the following way.

If you taper the bottom front half (bridge side) of a new board up about 1mm (from the neck root forward, like the old style Michael described... don't do more than 1 mm though) on a full length board (270 mm), then dress the board so the corners are even (about 5.5 mm) you should increase the projection significantly. If a pull-up is still required at that point, it shouldn't be as severe (and will put less strain on the button).

This is a good deal more work, of course.... I'm not sure what your plans for the fiddle are.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I like Michael's idea.

[Regis]

Wouldn't I have to shorten the neck down to 123mm for baroque? By-the-way, the top of the nut is on horizontal plane with the middle of the plate edge (1.5mm above rib).

Regis

[Regis]

Quote: "This is a good deal more work, of course.... I'm not sure what your plans for the fiddle are. "

I paid too much for it so I have to learn all I can, then fix/set it up as well as possible to sell and recover.

Regis

[Andres Sender]

Michael, if he puts a baroque-style board on it does he even need the pull-up? As it is he'd end up with more of a transitional board shape as I read the picture?

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Hi Andres;

I think you're responding to two different posts (ideas). I suggested the replacement board, but with the idea the instrument would be set up in the modern style. The 1 mm (or less) relief in the front half was suggested to slightly reduce the size of the pull-up required. 5 mm increase seemed like a lot to me. I'd worry about the button.

Micheal suggested a different route (gut strings, etc.).

[Ferrara]

Regis--The height of the bridge in my opinion is ok and I placed my angle device on the photo and it seems ok.The only problem if it is a problem is that your neck should be 138mm instead of 130.How do you know the angle is incorrect. Did you lay a ruler accross the neck from the nut to where the bridge is located? When you do that you should get a distance of 27mm. The so called overstand is in my opinion not the way to derive at the neck angle it is just a guide .

[Andres Sender]

Jeffrey--actually I was making an erroneous assumption that a wedge-style fingerboard is a necessary part of "baroque setup" :-)

If I understand what you suggested, it's like a VERY subtle version of a transitional style FB?

Oh and Regis--baroque setup does not require a particular neck/string length. Period necks varied.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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The only problem if it is a problem is that your neck should be 138mm instead of 130.

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Ferrara;

Am I missing something? Regis stated the neck was 127 mm, not 130. 130 is standard measured from the edge to the beginning of the nut. Where are you measuring from to use a figure of 138? Regis also mentioned his projection at the bridge was 21 using a straight edge, I believe.

Not trying to be troublesome... just confused by your post.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

Quote:

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If I understand what you suggested, it's like a VERY subtle version of a transitional style FB?

---

I guess you could think of it that way... How I think of it is just a modern board slightly "raised" on the fingerboard end. In otherwords, producing a flat bottomed blank, then tapering the portion of the bottom (just a little) after the glue surface as it approached the bridge. I believe this is standard procedure with some makers anyway... but in this case the suggestion was made to help increase the projection slightly, so that the correction required by a pull-up would be reduced.

[Michael Darnton]

Covering a couple of things all at once:

-28mm bridge height isn't enough for ANY type of setup--you *have* do fix that, one way or another--getting it up to at least in the 30-32mm window. Another option that hasn't been discussed is to pull off the board and plane a wedge off the bottom, more at the nut end, then put it back on.

-the board as it now is works for from about 1760 to 1830 or so, depending on where you are, and who the maker is--mostly towards the early end of that, though, because of the lamination.

-Yuen, Oakes is the guy who suggested maple tops? That pretty much immediately disqualifies anything else he says.

-if you change anything unnecessarily, I think that's a pity

-there's no standard neck length for this type of thing; 123 is actually almost beyond the minimum, and nowhere near the average. Even a modern 130 wouldn't be historically inaccurate.

-I can't fit 138 into this anywhere, unless you pick some really non-standard place to measure from-to.