techfiddle Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 I've asked this question in the past, but I've forgotten the answer or where to find it. But orchestras are ranked by budgets, aren't they? With the ones with the largest budgets at the top, such as I suppose, Chicago, New York, Cincinnati, LA, Boston. Are these not the so-called "major" orchestras? And second-tier orchestras, are these not groups like Houston, St. Louis, San Francisco, New Orleans? And third-ranking maybe Oklahoma City, Austin, Denver. I'm not sure..I think a group like the Tulsa Phil would be 4th tier? I have no idea. Anyone know? This should be on some statistical page somwhere? Thanks, T.F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erika Posted November 6, 2004 Report Share Posted November 6, 2004 I've never heard of an official ranking, although budget information is available from afm.org (via the members section), icsom.org, and ropaweb.org. I'm familiar with an unofficial echelon system among the ICSOM orchestras, which is based on a number of factors... musician salaries/contracts, artistic quality, and the relative prestige of the orchestra... more a way of classing orchestras into peer groups. For example, I often hear the top 20 or so orchestras divvied up into Big 5 - Tier 1 - Tier 2 - Tier 3. It's all hugely relative, though, and you could probably spend an entire afternoon debating whether orchestra X is at the bottom of the second tier or at the top of the third tier. I wouldn't tackle that particular debate in a million years. Besides, I'm not sure it's a very useful division, unless comparative information is being gathered for contract negotiations or a similar situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techfiddle Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 I think I can see what you mean; I certainly don't want to start any arguments about which orchestra is "better" than another. What I'm asking about is a totally non-subjective (if there is such a thing) ranking by ecomonic factors, totally devoid of any emotional considerations. The rankings very likely don't correspond with either any one person's particular taste or even a general consensus (if there is a such a thing) regarding which orchestras play best (and that's not the issue). I know there is such a ranking, somewhere. Sometimes the word "argument" doesn't have anything to do with the notion of "arguing," i.e., "fighting," but rather is just a proposal of possible facts, with one or more elements (usually more than one). Kind of like a math problem, A + B = C. Or, *does* A + B = C. There is no emotion involved. No reason to feel offended--or be defensive. So if it is unmistakably the case that one part of the planet has more money for the arts, it doesn't necessary follow that their orchestra is better -- I agree. I just want to know what the budgets are. I'm also curious about the word "major" being applied to orchestras. I always thought a "major orchestra" is like the top ten, not one of the others. And this later *is* more of a personal issue: someone whom I know is getting a lot of mileage out of being prin. 2nd in what they call a "major" orchestra, and I don't think it is any such thing. I think it is more like a third or fourth tier orchestra... Just wondering... T.F. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Victor Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 For a few years (until about 9 years ago) I was president of a small tax-exempt-corporation that funded our community orchestra and manager of the orchestra, as well. As such I participated in our membership in the California branch of a national orchestral association. Managers of orchesras of all sizes and budgets attendeed these meetings. Budgets were a major definer of orchestral differences. The major orchestras have many concerts each week, pay all their musicians good "living" wages and at that time had budgets of about $40M per year or more (for the LAPO and SFSO in California - if I recall correctly). Today, for example, the SFSO "tutti" players are remunerated more than $100K per year. Star performers (who are virtually soloists in that they are heard every time they play) earn more, as do first-chair players. These major orchestras are so busy performing that there is very little rehearsal time, especially for old "war horse" works. (Estimate: at least $15M Plus benefits annually for musicians alone.) The other best known US big city orchestras have internationally known music directors (who are paid big money) and similar salary scales for the tutti players. Regional orchestras hire musicians on a "per session" basis, which covers a certain amount of money for each player for each rehearsal session or performance. These orchestras may have annual budgets ranging upwards from about 1M/year, Players in these orchestras generally make their living by teaching, playing in a number of regional orchestras, and possibly additional things as well. Also, if the regional orchestra is within range of a major-city symphony you may find a number of those well-paid big-time musicians in the chairs along with more local players. For example the Santa Rosa and Marin Symphony Orchestras near my home both have a number of SFSO players (perhaps that is why they can be so good). Such orchestras will have a fairly close packed rehearsal schedule for the 3 -7 days before each concert and then run two or three performances of each program. Although because of the part-time nature of these orchestras, a lot of the rehearsals may be at night. (Rough estimate: if the musicians are paid about $300 per session, and their are 10 sessions per program and 6 programs per season, you are looking at about $300,000 in musician costs per performance and close to $2M per season plus all the other costs [probably no benefit costs]). You can work out the numbers: 1. Full-time salary equivalent for all players, plus ridiculously high remuneration for a part-time, world-class conductor, plus insurance costs, plus hall rental, plus advertising, plus management, etc. will give you minimum costs for a "major orchestra" that performs multiple concerts every week. The salaries can vary by a factor of 4 (probably) for different areas of the US. 2. I think that all other orchestras tend to have the same employee status as the regional orchestras with players paid by the job even if they are relatively "tenured" in their chairs. Some top-notch conducting talent can be found in front of some of these orchestras (better, in my opinion than some of the big names) but the communities cannot support full-time musicians or more than one or two concerts a month. Some of the regional orchestras also audition amateurs, who (if they make the cut) may only be paid a small remuneration for transportation. "Spinning" the reputation of an orchestra's music director can go a long way toward increasing its reputation, its "away concerts," its recording schedule, and eventually its standing in the top tier. I think ther top tier orchestras are all very good, and other people obviously have their favorites. Andy Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 1. The Cleveland Orchestra 2. All the others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techfiddle Posted November 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 Nardo, who's a violist in NYC, had this to say about my question: In a message dated 11/6/2004 1:48:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, techfiddle@yahoo.com writes: >> I've asked this question in the past, but I've forgotten the answer or where to find it. But orchestras are ranked by budgets, aren't they? With the ones with the largest budgets at the top, such as I suppose, Chicago, New York, Cincinnati, LA, Boston. Are these not the so-called "major" orchestras? Yes - in the US they are mostly ranked by budget. The so-called Big Five are the NY Philharmonic, the Boston Symphony, the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Chicago Symphony and the Cleveland Orchestra. The so-called second tier includes the Pittsburgh Symphony, the St. Louis Symphony, the San Francisco Symphony, the Los Angeles Philharmonic, the Minnesota Orchestra, the Houston Symphony, the Dallas Symphony and a few others. The third tier includes all the others you mentioned, plus many others as well. At least this has been the historical ranking. The Met Orchestra is in a separate category, since it's an opera orchestra, but quality-wise, it ranks with the best. Nardo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaco Posted November 7, 2004 Report Share Posted November 7, 2004 don't put San Fran in the second tier. They have one of the biggest budgets out there along with NY, Chic, Cleve, Bos, Philly, and LA. At first I thought you were joking! you can check out ICSOM and ROPA for budget info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fine Posted November 10, 2004 Report Share Posted November 10, 2004 Are you friends with Nardo? I studied with him a couple summers ago. Very good teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One_Tree_Hill Posted November 18, 2004 Report Share Posted November 18, 2004 The orchestral rankings are not based on the budget of the orchestra. Obviously the better orchestras will do better than the not so good ones, so they will have more money, but the big five are the BEST 5 orchestras, not the richest ones. I also agree that San Francisco should be considered top 5...but it's all subjective when the level is so high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosin Posted November 19, 2004 Report Share Posted November 19, 2004 Based only on taped radio broadcast I have heard, performances by the Detroit Symphony are in a class of their own. Having said that, I enjoy listening to the orchestras of the major music schools , whenever public radio gives them some air time. A week or two ago I heard the student orchestra of the Curtis Institute on the radio play an overture by Berlioz at a level that I never heard from any professional symphony. It was just astounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 ROPA (Regional Orchestra PLayers Association) is an organization open to any regional orchestra that meets certain criteria, including having a fairly high minimum budget. Not all Regional Orchestras are per-service groups. The Dallas Opera certainly is not. I'm sure there's a player's association for larger-budget orchestras(ICSOM, perhaps?) but I don't know what it is. By the way, Having a large budget does not at all insure top quality, but having a small budget almost certainly insures mediocrity, for lots and lots of reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogeontrain Posted July 17 Report Share Posted July 17 Im personally a big fan of the Cleveland orchestra, I went to see them once when I was younger, and I even have some family that live nearby. Its Probably the highest budget performance i have ever, and will ever see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navyasw02 Posted July 20 Report Share Posted July 20 I had to do a double take at the dates in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fine Posted July 31 Report Share Posted July 31 On 11/9/2004 at 10:01 PM, Stephen Fine said: Are you friends with Nardo? I studied with him a couple summers ago. Very good teacher. I don't think I could've ever imagined that I'd still be posting on Maestronet. This place has done a good job of sticking around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted August 1 Report Share Posted August 1 14 hours ago, Stephen Fine said: I don't think I could've ever imagined that I'd still be posting on Maestronet. This place has done a good job of sticking around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.