Guy_Gallo Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 If I wanted to have a fiddle tested, is there someone in the NYC area who does Dendro? Any idea what such a test costs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I think that, prior to do such test, perhaps it would be better getting an expert opinion about the violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thom Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I agree with Manfio. The likelihood that you would have a violin that would justify testing is very small, and an expert could tell you whether that likelihood is nonexistent or not. What maker do you think you have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy_Gallo Posted September 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I know the fiddle in question may not be worthy of doing the dendro test. I would seek more advice before doing it. I was just curious how much such a test runs, and who in the states does it (reputably). How big a deal is it? The fiddle in question has gotten a range of age "guesses" from various players/makers/dealers -- none "experts of the level of Beare or the late Jacques Francais -- from 1780 to 1890. It has confused just about everyone who's seen it. And may just be a clever Frankenviolin composite. Just thought if the test could clearly say "The tree was felled in 1870," then I could narrow where to look. And if was felled in 1770, I would have that much more credibility when I went to an expert to help place it into a region/school/maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 I think you have to narrow it down to a region (the region where the tree grew, that is) before you can ask the dendrochronologists for a date, because they use different reference chronologies for different regions. Also, I think that while spruce works well for this type of dating, maple does not. So, if you have a composite, at best you'll only be able to date the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Yes Brad, you are correct about that, the wood's region must be known in order to make the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Victor Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 I personally know two of "my" violin makers who use (or have used) very old wood for their "modern" instruments instruments. Henry Meissner would make regular trips to Europe looking for old wood to use - and Fernando Solar Gonzalez told me that he had bought an old convent the central supporting vertical beam of which had been the main mast of a galleon (ship) - good spruce for tops that he claimed he used throughout his career. Dendrochronology would tell nothing about the age of their instruments. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Hello Falstaff,I know it may seem like a long time ago, but if you still have your violin and would like a dendrochronology test doneon it, you can send me some good jpgs of each half and i may be able to date the wood for you. It's not a prerequisite knowing wherethe wood is from as modern computers can whizz through thousands of sequences of data in a matter of seconds.I am experimenting with dating wood directly from the pc screen and I am getting pretty good results, so as I said, send it off and I'll have a look at it.Peter Ratcliff theamaticollection.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 Talking about Dendro,has anyone read that Strad article on Cremonese wood in the July issue. Ive noticed they are now using the results in auction catalogues over here in the U.K ,supposedly pinpointing instruments down to the same logs amongst different makers.Interesting but im not completely convinced. There is a German place i saw on the internet that will age wood for you for around 100 euros,but they need a sample or preferably two from different areas.They use some sort of carbon dating i believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omobono Posted June 25, 2007 Report Share Posted June 25, 2007 quote: Originally posted by: Ratcliffiddles if you would like a dendrochronology test done on it, you can send me some good jpgs of each half and i may be able to date the wood for you. Is that offer a general invitation? How good a quality photo do you need? May PM you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello fiddlecollector. There is very stong dendro evidence that some individual makers(very few) used wood from the same log. I have personal experience of four violins by the same Italian maker displaying almost identical grain pattern and made within a five year period. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello Omobono, Well, I am developing my already extensive database, and jpgs are only "adequate", but have given surprisingly good results so far. I don't promise anything, but, and especially if you have "good" stuff, I will try to do it. Any Strad owners out there, get in touch! Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 quote: Originally posted by: Ratcliffiddles Hello fiddlecollector. There is very stong dendro evidence that some individual makers(very few) used wood from the same log. I have personal experience of four violins by the same Italian maker displaying almost identical grain pattern and made within a five year period. Peter Hi Peter ,yes i have no problem with that,but these latest results are talking of T values ,with anything over a value of 5 bearing a possible relationship to another piece of wood. The best matches having values around 10. But some of the makers mentioned ,i doubt used the same wood. Maybe John Topham who posts on here and was involved in the article can clear up some of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello fiddlecollector, T values are one thing, and together with an essential graphical comparison of the data, one can then make a pretty good assessment of the relationship between the various pieces of wood. You can have two pieces of wood from let's say Mittenwald, with a t value of 12 or sometimes more, which are evidently not from the same tree when compared graphically. On the other hand, a front, evidentally book matched, sometime only reaches a t value of 7 or 8, but will show up graphically as matching perfectly well. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonewoods Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 "I am experimenting with dating wood directly from the pc screen and I am getting pretty good results" How do you know that you are getting "good results"? Do you have wood samples that you are positive grew at a certain period of time, and are confirming them blindly using dendro? Just curious.... " You can have two pieces of wood from let's say Mittenwald, with a t value of 12 or sometimes more, which are evidently not from the same tree when compared graphically." What if the tree was off-center? A billet from one side of the tree would display graining--for example--with 24 grains-per-inch, and the other side of the tree might have a 10 GPI count... Both billets from the same tree, yet radically different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello Tonewoods, Most of your points have been dealt with extremely thoroughly in the past by Derek Mc C. and John Topham, so I won't repeat to much unless ou want me to. The reason I know I am getting "good results" is that I have tested dozens of violins with my regular optical equipment and subsequently repeated the process wih jpgs on screen for the same instuments, getting the same results and getting extremely good graphical correlation. If the tree was off center, as is often the case, the results will almost certainly be correct, repeating some of my colleagues comments, it is the relationship between the rings overall and not ring widths that matter. If one side of the tree has wider rings and the other narrow ones because of the slant of the hill where it grew, the relative ring width pattern will be similar and that will show up both statistically in a program and graphically. So the billets may look different, but really, I can assure you, they will match each other. Regarding wood samples that grew positively somewhere, there is an extensive database of stuff collected in various regions of the Alps (and everywhere else for that matters) by trained tree people over the last few decades which forms part of the basis for dating wood and together with instrument data, after four & half years of measuring, (blindly or not) I am starting to get a general picture of what was going on then with wood use. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonewoods Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudall Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 How close can a dendrochronological analysis get to the actual felling date of a sruce tree used for a violin? Or to put it another way, typically how close is the outside edge of the table to the bark? Or is there no 'typical'? Andrew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello rudall, There is no general rule, but more often than not, Classical Italian violins, incl. Strads, Del Gesu, other Cremonese, Venetians etc.. produce a dendro date relatively close to the label date. To name drop, I'll mention a 1721 Strad with a dendro date of 1711, another from 1719 with 1710 dendro date, and occasionally even closer dates are met with. We have to assume in those cases that the tree was felled near to those dendro dates, and that Strad was pretty good at doing middle joints, therefore losing but a few outer growth rings. On the other hand, a George Panormo of 1824 revealed a dendro date of 1733. This gap between the two dates is not unusual on English instruments, both from the eighteenth and nineteenth century in my experience. Sometime the structure of the wood can lead to speculation as to the felling date, but as the last ring isn't actually present, it is only conjecture. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 On your web page you state: "The present success rate in dating spruce from the table of an instrument is in the region of 60 to 70%." That's a pretty low success rate in my eyes. Is that an accuracy percentage for a defined timeframe (such as...within 5 years)? I know I am missing something here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonewoods Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 "On the other hand, a George Panormo of 1824 revealed a dendro date of 1733. This gap between the two dates is not unusual on English instruments, both from the eighteenth and nineteenth century in my experience. " Fungusing, and thus the discarding of the sapwood--a fairly common occurance--would possibly help to explain this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 "How close is the outside edge of the table to the bark?" The proper question to ask is: "How close is the center joint of the table to the bark?," because the outside edge is toward the center of the tree. Some wood from the outside of the tree will allways be lost in planing the billet to make the center joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 Hello Dean, Actually, I thought 60% success rate was pretty good. When I get a date, I get a date, it is not within five, ten or any other number of years, it is the actual date when the last growth ring present on the violin was growing. The rate of success will I suppose and trust, increase as time goes by. When a date is not found, the data is stored and used in future analysis and might, in time reveal the correct date. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudall Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 quote: Originally posted by: Brad_Dorsey The proper question to ask is: "How close is the center joint of the table to the bark?," Silly me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean_Lapinel Posted June 26, 2007 Report Share Posted June 26, 2007 OK Peter, I think I have it. It's close to a coin toss that you will get a date but....if you get a date it's near 100% accurate. The lack of a date is not a fault in the method but a current deficiency in the data pool. Am I getting close? Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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