Altitude, or latitude.

[Wolfjk]

Altitude, or latitude?

My question is about the tree-line. Trees grow slower and lay down narrower annual rings as the altitude they grow at, increases. At a certain altitude they stop growing altogether, and that is called the tree line. This also happens as we go nearer to the north or south poles.

Would the slow growing spruce growing on a mountainside, near the tree line make better tone wood than those growing on flat terrain near the arctic-circle? Timber from both trees would show similar ring structure, however the trees growing on the mountainside would have had drier growing conditions.

Also, what effect would the longer daylight hours in summer near the arctic circle have on the timber? Perhaps A Canadian tone wood dealer could answer?

As there are several mountain ranges with tree lines in Europe, what effect would that have on dendro-chronology? Did the two scientists, Lloyd Buckle and Henri Grissino-Mayer take into consideration the natural slowing down of growth near the tree line when they formulated their theory concerning the effect of the Little Ice Age on the tone of Stradivari violins? Or were they just making mischief?

Cheers Wolfjk

[tonewoods]

"Trees grow slower and lay down narrower annual rings as the altitude they grow at, increases."

An extremely off-centered tree (fairly common, by the way) would detract from this theory, displaying both tight and wider grained wood in the same tree...

"Would the slow growing spruce growing on a mountainside, near the tree line make better tone wood than those growing on flat terrain near the arctic-circle?"

This theory is based on the false assumption that tight-grained wood is "better tone wood".

Just my opinion, of course...

By the way, it's my experience that good tight-grained wood is much easier to find than a good loose-grained tree.

So-ooo, I would much rather find a good loose grained tree with tonewood characteristics (no knots, straight-splitting, consistant graining) any day...

"Did the two scientists, Lloyd Buckle and Henri Grissino-Mayer take into consideration the natural slowing down of growth near the tree line when they formulated their theory concerning the effect of the Little Ice Age on the tone of Stradivari violins?"

One might ask as well whether or not they took into account the effects of an off-centered tree...

Grain lines, with this in mind, are not always the indicator of growth patterns that one might think they are, with the same tree displaying 30 grains-per-inch and 18 grains-per-inch in the same round....

[nicolo]

To generalize from my own experience, it seems that violins with wider grain in their tops tend to be sweeter and maybe a little fuller than those with tighter grain.

But what would you regard as the limit in loose grain, say in lines per inch, to be suitable for a violin top? Is there a point at which you would reject a piece of otherwise acceptable spruce?

[jmasters]

It seems as though spiral growth is a dominant trait of spruce trees. The evolutinary impetus would be to make branches more resistant to wind loads. The spiral could "unwind" to take up stresses. If the tree were protected from such stresses, the "tropism" of spiral growth would not be excited in the young tree.

If a maker wants non-spiral, and that seems the norm, one would expect to find these trees in well sheltered places. Perhaps ravines. But also well-lighted ones to give a more open grain. Just an idea. Such geological locations might be scarce. That could in part explain the scarcity of "ideal" tone wood.

[Wolfjk]

Hi Tonewood,

Sorry about the late reply.

"Trees grow slower and lay down narrower annual rings as the altitude they grow at, increases."

**An extremely off-centered tree (fairly common, by the way) would detract from this theory, displaying both tight and wider grained wood in the same tree...**

The off-centred tree would still have the same number of rings as it’s neighbours. The eccentricity is caused by outside influences, usually leaning to one side, or an imbalanced crown. In a well managed forest, the trees are planted in rows at regular intervals and form their own eco-system. In the renewable forests of Sweden and Finland, the timber is almost perfect for the purpose it is grown for.

"Would the slow growing spruce growing on a mountainside, near the tree line make better tone wood than those growing on flat terrain near the arctic-circle?"

**This theory is based on the false assumption that tight-grained wood is "better tone wood".

Just my opinion, of course...**

Whether the tree is tight grained, or fast growing, its suitability – apart from the obvious: “(no knots, straight-splitting, consistent graining)” depends on its specific weight. A seemingly loose grained log can sometimes yield timber that is much heavier than close grained wood of the same species growing next to it.

If I have the choice, I will choose medium grained wood for a violin. Tight grained wood tends to be generally heavier ( depending on species) and gives a smaller tone, while faster growing wood might give a tone like an empty barrel.

All this depends on the availability of the timber. In the Check Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania, the wood from the Carpathian mountains has a relatively loose grain. The Alps and Balkans have slower growing wood. You will know more about American and Canadian timber, however I used Red Cedar, Douglas fir, Eastern hemlock, Black Walnut, and many other New world timbers. Red Cedar is specially prone to different growth rate. In a billet of 12"x4" there may be zones with either very fast - 6 growth rings to an inch or very slow - 40 growthrings to an inch anywhere in the billet. What causes this?

The off centred trees would definitely play havok with dendrochronology, however the Italian violinmakers must have had a regular source of tone wood, probably from the same area, and it was easy to collect reference samples. I would doubt very much if the wood Guarneri used would fit into the sample!

Cheers Wolfjk

[Wolfjk]

Hi Niccolo

------To generalize from my own experience, it seems that violins with wider grain in their tops tend to be sweeter and maybe a little fuller than those with tighter grain.

But what would you regard as the limit in loose grain, say in lines per inch, to be suitable for a violin top? Is there a point at which you would reject a piece of otherwise acceptable spruce?------

It depends on what is available. I would prefer spruce with medium grain and crisp texture, with well defined early and late wood for violins, more open grain and lighter wood for violas. However the strings will always make a sound whatever the box is made from! It is how much help and modification they get from the wood that counts. One can’t reject a piece of wood, if it is the only one, but try to make the best of it. Also, there is a lot depend on the skill of the violinmaker.

On some mass produced instruments there may only be 7, or 8 growth rings to an inch on the outside, yet they are playable.

Cheers Wolfjk

[Wolfjk]

Hi JMasters

------It seems as though spiral growth is a dominant trait of spruce trees. The evolutinary impetus would be to make branches more resistant to wind loads. The spiral could "unwind" to take up stresses. If the tree were protected from such stresses, the "tropism" of spiral growth would not be excited in the young tree.-----

Unfortunately the saw-cuts hide many twists. It is better to get split spruce for instrument. Often a bit of a twist can be corrected, or it might even correct itself when the tension is released by splitting.

-----If a maker wants non-spiral, and that seems the norm, one would expect to find these trees in well sheltered places. Perhaps ravines. But also well-lighted ones to give a more open grain. Just an idea. Such geological locations might be scarce. That could in part explain the scarcity of "ideal" tone wood.-----

In Europe many Tone wood dealers look for trees on sheltered southern slopes of mountains. However the twisting nature of the wood is in the genetics of some trees, no matter where they grow. It is up to the sincerity of the dealer not to supply such wood. The problem with twisted wood is that when you book-match the two halves of the wedge the twist doubles, and the grain runs one way on one side, opposite way on the other. The main cause of wolf-notes, in my opinion!?

Cheers Wolfjk

BTW, Twisted grain is best observed on old Sweet Chestnut trees in England!

[Michael Darnton]

[La Folia]

Cool! Imagine the bizarre instruments that could have been made from those!