Cremonese "secret"?

[Craig Tucker]

Quote:

"Second, the "lost secret" cannot be something that the Cremenese creators were aware of. Otherwise, the apprentice system would have assured its perpetuation down to the present day.

So it must have been some characteristic of the materials used -- a characteristic of which the creators were unaware and which has changed, indeed disappeared, over time."

I favor this probable explaination also. I believe it (the "secret") was most probably a standard procedure that the Italian practitioners in question used, but were unaware was going to result in the violins being tonally superior over time.

Note;

I was drinking an espresso yesterday, and decided that the secret "must be" that they used coffee as a coloring agent in their varnish... now I'm off to prove it.

(just kidding - well, maybe)

[MANFIO]

ctviolin: I make espresso cofee at home. I have a good Italian machine, but the cofee powder must be first quality (Illy, from Italy, is the best, in my opinion), you have to press the cofee in the right way, the cup must be pre heated, etc. etc., there are many secrets in making a good espresso too!

[Craig Tucker]

Mmmmmmm, I'll be right over.

[Michael Darnton]

I'm in favor of the idea that they did something, and that it wasn't particularly special to them, for whatever reason; or maybe it was, but not in a way we'd relate to now, perhaps. It doesn't matter, since they didn't write it down. I suspect if we knew, and asked one of them, he'd have a good explanation. They did a number of things differently from us, and finding them and figuring them out is a fun game now, if frustrating sometimes.

The idea of transmission through apprenticeship doesn't work. The end of the Cremonese violin was essentially because of the death of violin making in Cremona--usually the dates are given as between 1745 and 1780 or so--and the consequent loss of their tradition. By the time that Count Cozio was trying to figure out what they had been doing, say around 1785, there was no one there to ask. He poked around the last members of the Bergonzi and Stradivari families, but they weren't violin makers, and they didn't really know much about it. Usually the influx of cheap German violins is credited with this assassination of Italian violin making--notice how very many cheap German violins there are from the time around 1780---something like we might see in this country sooner or later, thanks to the Chinese.

[jeff1]

I wondered if they use a chemical, or mineral, during the seasoning process! Something to help the wood season, or maybe to stablize the wood to decrease checking or something like that.

[Violinnut]

Michael , you make a comment on your website that makes lots of sense, but if I can extrapolate

You say you try to put yourself in the shoes of the maker and his epoque (time) in order to better get a feel for his making.

Maybe for this possibility we need to look away from violin making and more to daily life. How was the wood taken, stored etc. Maybe there are not so many evidence from Stradivari himself, how about from cabinet makers of the time? Or house constructor? They most likely used wood that also came from the same area.

Just a shot in the dark or maybe ??????

[Michael Darnton]

Yes. I think that's exactly what we need to do.

[David Tseng]

The logs were transported in waterways and kept in pond for some time before sawing into planks. The wood we use now never comes in contact with river water.

[Steve R.]

Quote:

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The wood we use now never comes in contact with river water.

---

Actually there is a source for water seasoned pine in the U.S. It would take some research to find exactly where to buy, maybe a good lumber yard would know. Anyway, there are logs from the late 1800's early 1900's that sank from log rafts on lake Michigan which are being raised and sold to high end manufacturers because the wood has the tight even straight grain than modern grown lumber lacks due to faster growth varieties etc.

Found a link : Log Recovery

[Violinnut]

Now maybe we are getting somewhere

Keep on searching , answers will come.

Maybe in an old ship-yard?

[fiddlecollector]

Perhaps it has something to do with venetian mud!

I watched an interesting documentary on the timber `piles`, that Venice is made from.Perhaps someone should go and dig one up and make a violin out of it.

This has probably been mentioned before as all these theories have.

[Michael Darnton]

Yes, I think the story about wood being floated down from the Alps to the Bay of Venice is several hundred years old. A number of makers have experimented with various versions of "ponding" (as it's called) wood, but not with any great success. At one point Nagyvary's latest "revealed secret of Cremona" was that bacteria in the water had eaten out parts of the wood selectively.

[MANFIO]

Michael, Cozio de Salabue warns to buy violin wood in Venice but before it has been submerged in the seawater to stop the woodworm.

[Jacob]

The obvious route to take with such an enquiry would seem to me to imagine what those old guys wanted to protect their wood from, be they carpenters, cabinet makers or violin makers. Top of the list surely would be fungal and insect infestation. Apparently spring water of volcanic origin (available in Italy, I think) contain boron - hallo, Nagyvary! The problem with boron seems to be which kind of compound to aim for - borax might not be be most suitable. But there are a myriad others, with all sorts of interesting properties which could relate to violins - perhaps compounding with some elements in the wood itself, interesting optic properties, stiffening the wood, etc. It's really way beyond me, chemistry was never one of my strong suits.

[Michael Darnton]

If they were attempting to protect against worms, they sure didn't do a very good job! So if that's what you're thinking, you should be looking for something that you'd think would do that, which doesn't. :-)

[fiddlecollector]

Take your violin spread liberally with borax solution and heat with a blow torch.What you get is wood bonded to a soft glass.But how to avoid the scorching is another matter.

[Okawbow]

Borax is a good dessicant. I have used it to preserve and dry snake skins and small skin and hair samples for fly tying. I could see it possibly as a drying agent for wood. Possibly it reduces the percent of moisture the wood maintains after it reaches equalibrium, thereby making it lighter and more resonate?

[jmasters]

Nagyvary says that they used borax to prevent woodworm. I have found many sites on the web that propose borax as an environmentally-friendly preventative against wood pests. Such as in log cabins and fence posts. I don't know how effective it is, but boron in any form seems to do the trick. Boric acid or borax, who cares. It IS interesting that borax is not widely distributed over the globe. On one site, I found that a couple regions in Italy had borax, whereas it was otherwise scarce in Europe.

Maybe some Cremonese violins have woodworm, I do not know at all. I will take Michael's word on that point. But as to Strads, do they have an unusually low incidence of woodworm ? Of course they might simply because they were better taken care of and stored in dry places.

When Woodhouse and Barlow showed their data for elements in a possible mineral ground, they mentioned that they could not see below an atomic number corresponding to sodium (or about that size). At the time, I wrote him and mentioned that it was a pity they could not see atomic number 4, because I would have liked to see if boron was actually present.

As far as tone is concerned, the question would be about the role of the borax. What would it do to the wood to improve sound? Any ideas ........ anyone ?????

[jeff1]

According to Nagyvary, borax also attachs to the wood fibers, causing the wood to stiffen. Plus doing the proceture also cleaned out any impurities in the wood, causing the wood to be lighter!

[David Tseng]

In Hill's book, they mentioned 3 important factors. I've done some experiments and would

like to change the order of importance to: 1st wood, 2nd varnish, 3rd construction and

dimension. The dimension is the least sensitive factor among the three, so long as the

"general shape" of the arch is maintained, you can change the height by +- 1mm (or more),

it won't make much difference. Same with the thickness. I lightly glue several violins

together when the top is 3.2mm all over and play for 3 months, then reduce the top to 2.2mm.

The tone color and the power change very little. I'm not saying that there is no difference.

I generally like thin plate violins, they are easier to play. But if I use a bad piece

of spruce and bad varnish (not the colored one), it would sound terrible at 2.2mm.

I would suggest that you do your homework.

[jmasters]

Yes, it can cross link with certain molecules. There are a lot of recipes on line for kids to make "slime" with borax and something else.

[Dean_Lapinel]

.

[jeff1]

I did talk to Nagyvary, he said that he has been a proponite of the use of borax for 25 years. As I posted earilier I can't see Stradivari boiling his wood for 20 hours. Nagyvary does have some nice sounding violins, I will give him that, but there are alot of great sounding violins by other makers as well! I do believe that Stradivari did treat his wood, how I don't know, but I do believe that someone will make a violin to match his one day!

[jeff1]

While your at it get me one too!!:-)

[jeff1]

Here is an interesting article on wood compostion. I found the last two paragraphs most interesting.

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/...ts/6413ch1.html