vi01in Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hi- I have a friend who is planning to enter a competition in the next year... August? September? Bah, can't remember. She wants her concerto (yes, it has to be a concerto.) to be TOTALLY polished, and she really wants to do one of the romantics. She'll only need one movement for the competition, but might like to learn the rest of it. I was thinking of suggesting the first movement of Bruch, but I don't know if the third movement... Ah, you know. She just finished both Accolay and the third movement of Mozart second, and before that Dvorak's four romantic pieces, second piece. She played them well. Oh, and no student concertos. Any suggestions? Thanks a billion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technique_doc Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Bit of an odd one....but if it can be a concerto 'piece' what about Scene de Ballet - deBeriot ?? a bit 'student-y' but a genuine piece IMHO It's a tough level (where this player is at) for getting into the romantic repertoire, nearly all the old favourites are hampered by difficult other movements or one or two 'silly' bars. Most just get on with mendelssohn or bruch and forget the last movements for now. Just a thought but......1st mvt barber concerto always goes down well with my pupils, as does lalo -symphonie espagnole. T_D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vi01in Posted February 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Thanks- Is Mendelssohn mvmt 1 harder than mvmt 3? I always thought just the opposite... And Lalo? How would you arrainge that- I would think (including Bruch, easiest to hardest) Bruch mvmt 1 Mendelssohn mvmt 3 Bruch mvmt 3 Mendelssohn mvmt 1 Lalo (mvmt 1, if that's all we're considering.) Is Lalo mvmt 2 hard? Never tried it, but I really struggled with mvmt 1. I dunno, maybe it's just me. And Mvmt 5... Shudder. Thanks! ps, what do you mean by 'silly' bars? Can you give an example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staylor Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 A few days ago I got the violin part for De Berio's seventh concerto (the reason I didn't get it earlier was because I thought that wonderful concerto was the ninth one, as stated on the cover of Maud Powells CD, and I couldn't find that violin part on the shelves). So, _I_ think it is a WONDERFUL concerto, and It seems easier (though doesn't sound it) than Paganinis Caprices............oh no! I should hope so, but also perhaps significantly easier than the Mendelson and Bruch and others etc. It is virtuoso style combined with great music and beauty, but not too demanding. I would recomend it (If it were ME looking for a romantic concerto, at this juncture) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUfan Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Why not Viotti 22 or 23? Or perhaps Vieuxtemps 4? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valium Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Hi, I think the easiest while the most romantic piece is the Wieniawski concerto No.2 2nd movement!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toscha Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 What about Mendelssohn D minor? It is certainly not as difficult as the more famous E minor, but quite effective and definitely Romantic. 2nd movement is not unlike a vocal recitative and aria, and the last movement has more than a hint of Hungarian gypsy music of the day. The first movement is well-written and passionate, as well as delicate and elfin. Viotti Nos. 22 and 23 can be classified as Classical or Romantic, depending on the performer. They have wonderfully Italianate melodies and also quite effective. I guess I am fairly conservative and do not believe that jumping from Accolay and Mozart No.2 to Bruch or Lalo will be particularly good idea. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staylor Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Quote: Why not Viotti 22 or 23? Or perhaps Vieuxtemps 4? Just a thought. I'm not familiar with Viotti or Vieuxtemps concertos (not even what they sound like). So I MIGHT think different if I heard them. Why? you think they are equal or better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUfan Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 They're definitely easier than Lalo. Vieuxtemps 4 is probably a little easier than Bruch. When I was a teen, I played Bruch, Vieuxtemps 4 and Wieniawski D Minor. Of those, I think I had the most success with Vieuxtemps 4, followed by Wieniawski, first movement. I won MTNA state and got second place in regional with Vieuxtemps 4 (not to brag, just to give an idea of choosing a piece). Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabal Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Quote: It rubs the rosin on its bow... Wow, very clever I bet I am the only one who understands what this means... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUfan Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Ok, I'll bite. What does it mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabal Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Quote: Ok, I'll bite. What does it mean? I cant tell you, I have taken of vow of SILENCE. I like Genesis, I like the Lamb lies down on Broadway, and it was very historic when Hannibal crossed the Alps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUfan Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Turkey's fry best on Saturday's, but only on a snowy day in June. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vi01in Posted February 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Kabal- I am SO proud that you got that! A fellow (I hope) SOTL fan!!! The turkey comment... WHAT? Me no get. Thanks to all for replying; but about my Mendelssohn question; which fast movement is easier? 1 or 3? Any definative... um... Thoughts? I mean, personally, I think mvmt 3 is SOO easy and mvmt 1 is a killer. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technique_doc Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Quote: Hi, I think the easiest while the most romantic piece is the Wieniawski concerto No.2 2nd movement!! Well yes.....some teachers put their students on it and just call it 'Romance' !! Nice as it is it's not that satisfying for a pupil to do on it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technique_doc Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Quote: ps, what do you mean by 'silly' bars? Can you give an example? OK, so there are lots of 'not too difficult' good pieces around, but many have a few bars that are actually rather hard. The last mvt Bruch - the tenths often 'ruin' a good rendition last mvt Mendelssohn - last section (from scales before E major trills) can often cause too much pain. Wieniawski 2, the big 'treble' stops in the 1st mvt This type of thing. Lalo has no wicked bars nor Barber. Even Elgar 1st mvt has no really mad bars. Saint-Saens likewise....? I think. It depends on where your pupils are at....if they approach a concerto from 'above' the required standard then OK...but if they are a bit below, a few really complex or as I call them 'silly' bars make the difference in confidence for the learning and performance. As for the 1st vs. last mvt Mendelssohn......the two movements present very different challenges. For the majority, the 1st proves easier as the tempo is kinder and the double stops are mostly OK. The last is a real 'pickle'....the constant semiquavers often drive pupils to distraction because they are so hard to even out and play really accurately in time. The 4th stretches are hard, especially for small hands. I could imagine certain players agreeing the 1st is harder, but that doesn't seem the general rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabal Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Quote: Kabal- I am SO proud that you got that! A fellow (I hope) SOTL fan!!! The turkey comment... WHAT? Me no get. Thanks to all for replying; but about my Mendelssohn question; which fast movement is easier? 1 or 3? Any definative... um... Thoughts? I mean, personally, I think mvmt 3 is SOO easy and mvmt 1 is a killer. Thanks! Thank YOU! I really got a big laugh out of that, extremely clever, I wish I would have thought of it first. NuFan is joking about my cryptic attempt to give clues about what that means. My fiance and I are going through tough times, so that really made my day, obviously I am a big SOTL fan. To get on-topic, the opening of the Mendelssohn Concerto scares me to death, and I am a seasoned pro. I have heard a lot of great fiddlers play it out of tune. What do you mean when you say " Romantic Concerto"? Barber is not of this period, nor is Spohr or Viotti ( Debatable of course, but I would think of them as Classical composers). I go through this with my students: there is no "easy" romantic Concerto. It is a huge jump from Accolay to Bruch, and nothing in between. If Spohr is considered a Romantic composer ( he was a buddy of Beethoven), I would go with him and the Concerto # 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Schutz Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 I'm thinking Schubert's Rondo in A for solo violin & strings. This is not really a concerto, but it is equivalent to a concerto movement. I believe it is even available on CD in "minus 1" form, i.e., orchestra plays and you provide the solo violin. I'll leave it to others who are better versed in the audition process to comment whether this could be a candidate. HS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
concertA Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 Quote: Why not Viotti 22 or 23? Or perhaps Vieuxtemps 4? Just a thought. Aren't the Viotti ones considered more as student concertos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james2 Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 I thought Viotti was slightly more classical... is it not? I think Kabelevsky is a "easier" Romantic concerto. In truth, no concerto is a walkover for all soloists.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveLaBonne Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Kabalevsky is indeed romantic in style and even I can more or less play it, however for audition purposes it would undoubtedly be classified as modern, so a teacher would need to be cautious if that was a potential issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technique_doc Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Yes, the Kab' is of course a modern work....i.e. not romantic. It is a must play piece though and helps to bridge the (most noticeable) gap between student concerti and 'real' concerti. T_D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vi01in Posted February 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Thanks to all! She just had her lesson yesterday- she argued for the Bruch mvmt 1, and it's probably not gonna happen. Same for Mendelssohn in general. It's likely that she's gonna end up with a Mozart- which would be good? She wants 5, her teacher wants 3, but she might get her way now that she's already had a disapointment with Bruch. This has raised a question with me; I've looked at Ms. Delay's rep list and it puts Wieniawski before Mendelssohn and Lalo before Mendelssohn as well. Um, personally, I'd put Mendelssohn first out of that lot, then Lalo, then Wieniawski. Bruch before all of it, and Kab before that. Any thoughts? And adding the Mozarts in... Ok, here's my thoughts. What does everybody else think about these 'thoughts'? Mozart 2 Mozart 3 Kab Mozart 1 Bruch Praeludium and Allegro (I know, not a concerto, but I really wanted it included...) Partita 2, minus the Chaccone Mendelssohn Barber Partita 3 Lalo Intro and Rondo Cappricioso Wieniawski Saint-saens Tchaik Sibelius Tzigane Beethoven Elgar What do you think? Please help me out here... Thanks for everything! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technique_doc Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 It really is difficult to 'order' things The Mozarts are easier because the numbers correspond roughly with the difficulty. The so-called 'Delay' list is also fairly misleading, since most of her students wouldn't fit the normal profile. Personally I'd rather play Elgar than Tchaik or Brahms. I'd put Barber in 'early' other than last mvt. Lalo is not hard other than mvt 5 and Wieniawski sits 'middling' IMHO. Beethoven is difficult to grade and because it's not a 'romantic' work it has it's own (mostly v. hard) problems Of the really 'big' works (romantic only) I'd probably go for Bruch - Lalo - Mendelssohn - Saint-Saens (concerto or Int & Rondo) - Tchaik - Sibelius (not Romantic as such?) - Brahms. Something like that. In reality it depends on if the whole piece is to be played. 1st mvt Sibelius isn't too bad, but the last is difficult. Tchaik is very long and requires an extended 'study' period. Overall, best not to mix up the periods - you can do Mozart early on and then again when 'seriously' studying. You can't attempt much of the 'Romantic' list until certain minimums of technique are acheived. T_D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
administrator Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Quote: Beethoven is difficult to grade and because it's not a 'romantic' work it has it's own (mostly v. hard) problems I'm probably wrong <grin--I'm sure I'll be enlightened in that regard>, but I'm not sure about the Beethoven not being Romantic. Remember that famous passage in Grout (p. 521, 3rd ed.): Quote: Through external circumstances and the force of his own genius he transformed this heritage and became the source of much that was characteristic of the Romantic period. But he himself is neither Classic nor Romantic; he is Beethoven, and his figure towers like a colossus astride the two centuries. In the last paragraph of that chapter, the notion of whether Beethoven is Romantic or not is debated further; Hoffman thought he was, apparently. But Palisca (probably) concludes: Quote: Romantic or not, Beethoven was one of the great disruptive forces in the history of music. After him, nothing could ever be the same agan; he had opened the gateway to a new world. But, at the least, it may not be entirely accurate to say that "Beethoven wasn't a Romantic composer.." though of course, you didn't say that - only that the vl concerto isn't Romantic..It *is* from the 2nd style period, however, so perhaps you're right. <running, ducking, etc.> BTW, is the DeLay list online? I hadn't heard of it and would love to see it. R.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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