Playing WIth or Without Shoulder Rest

[eyes]

Are there any advantages or disadvantages for playing with or without a Kun shoulder rest as opposed to a sponge? If so, what are they?

[Keith Rogers]

Wow it's about time for this topic to come up again... (Don't take it personally, but I don't think anybody can answer your question.)

Your life will be enriched beyond belief by using the Search function and reading earlier threads on this topic. But, let me see if I can summarize.

Playing without a shoulder rest:

1. It's a relatively recent invention, so the correct way to play the violin (i.e., as the violin gods intended) is without one. Here is a long list of great players who play[ed] without a shoulder rest: ...

2. The violin sounds better without a shoulder rest, because a) the vibration of the back can use the natural amplification of the chest cavity to enhance the sound, everyone else who doesn't use a shoulder rest tells me I sound better without one, c) I just know it sounds better.

3. The shoulder rest is a crutch. Learn to play without one, and you will develop the correct technique for, well, everything. If you think it's hard to shift without a shoulder rest, you are a wimp, and should probably stick to fiddling in the first position. Conversely, if you can only play with a shoulder rest, something is terribly wrong with your technique, and you need to abandon the rest and whatever you have learned to this point, and start over.

4. Only children use foam pads, though a folded up hanky underneath your tux is OK.

Playing with a shoulder rest:

1. Thank the violin gods for progress! Everybody's body is different, and it's crazy to think that the same playing position would work for everyone. Here is a long list of great players who play[ed] with a shoulder rest: ...

2. The violin sounds better with a shoulder rest, because a) the back is not damped by being held against the body, thus allowing the instrument to vibrate more freely, everyone else who uses a shoulder rest tells me I sound better with one, c) I just know it sounds better.

3. Playing without a rest will prevent you from developing correct posture and technique. The bowstroke, left-hand position, vibrato, shifting, etc., will all be served better by using a shoulder rest, and if you're not using one now, you are probably years behind where you would have been. Please buy a Kun rest, since they are the best (unless you can afford something more expensive), and start learning to play correctly.

4. Foam pads are perfectly acceptable, though, of course, the suede covered variety are preferable.

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In case I missed the point, here's my honest answer. Foam pads can be made to fit anyone, but just any old hunk of foam is not ideal. It will fit in just about any violin case, but you'll need to make sure you have spare rubber bands. They also tend to make a lot less noise if they fall off in the middle of a concert. Kun rests are annoying, but functional, and most of the rest of the folks won't look down their nose at you if you've got one. They can break, they do fall off, and they're not perfect for everyone, especially if misadjusted.

[La Folia]

"Your life will be enriched beyond belief by using the Search function and reading earlier threads on this topic."

I love Keith's touch of humor. I would only add that there are many, many other shoulder rests on the market.

I will refrain from adding any more comments -- a decision for which we can all be thankful, and that I hope others will emulate.

[eyes]

Hi,thanks for your replies. I didn't find what I wanted when I looked at the archives before posting. I've noticed that some players play with a sponge or cosemtic sponge as opposed to a Kun shoulder rest. Does the sponge dampen the violin more than the Kun shouldler rest? It seems like the sponge dampens the violin more than the Kun shoulder rest but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts?

[D_A]

As someone who has gone back and forth on this, playing with for 8 years, without for 20+, with for ~5 (various types -- I have a shoulder/chin rest collection you wouldn't believe ) and with a cosmetic sponge for 2+ I'd say for me the main difference is the angle of the violin. The Kuns and other hard rests tend to make the violin less horizontal (i.e. the G string is higher and the E string lower) than playing restless or with a cosmetic pad. As for dampening -- I'm not sure whether the difference is significant, and that probably depends on how you hold the violin, where the sponge or Kun is placed, etc. If you play restless and hold the violin between your chin and collarbone it will be relatively undampened, but if your shoulder comes up and clamps against the back it will dampen the sound more. So it's all relative.

[Daniel]

I also don't want to get into the endless debate about shoulder rests, but I wanted to mention that sponges are becoming really popular in my youth orchestra. I think much of this is because one of the big teachers in the Chicagoland area is a strong supporter of using cosmetic sponges, and many of those kids are in my orchestra. I tried it myself, and found I didn't really need the extra height (I already play shoulder rest-less), but I had all of my students try the sponges, and I saw that for those using a conventional shoulder rest, there was a marked improvement in their posture and tone. All but one said they were comfortable with the set-up, and the one that didn't like the cosmetic sponge was already using a big, purple, contoured sponge. Some of my students with longer necks ended up choosing to use two sponges. I'm not trying to offer any scientific analysis about the sound or mechanics of violin playing, because there are clearly valid arguments on both sides--I just wanted to share what my observations were in my small group of 5-8 students.

[thom]

As with many of these issues, I think the bottom line is what makes you comfortable and works best for you. You will find you play and sound much better if you are comfortable than if you are not. The difference in sound between using and not using a shoulder rest, is not, IMHO, significant enough to overcome other factors.

[Stephen Fine]

Every week at Rice both viola studios get together and both Karen Ritscher and James Dunham lecture about different aspects of playing. Two weeks ago, Prof. Ritscher said that she had gone restless the day before and asked Prof. Dunham to give an explanation of the benefits and technique of playing restless. That day I tried playing restless and it worked for the first time. Playing restless allows for so much freedom of movement. I have a built up chin rest though that helps me from bending my neck too far.

Sorry if this isn't concise.

Anyway... I also remember at a masterclass over the summer (which I think I wrote about in another post) Aaron Rosand went on and on about the evils of the shoulder rest. He claimed that using the rest dampens the sound that in fact when the instrument makes direct contact with your body it uses your body as a resonance chamber... I dunno if I buy it, but it was a cool idea.

Anyway... I never thought I could be comfortable restless, and now I am. All the tension in my left shoulder is gone and my bow arm has improved (then again, I've been working on my bow arm for some time now).

[Andrew Victor]

Well! If the body resonates and it is heard, then I guess Jello sings!

I played without a shoulder rest for the first 30 years and with shoulder rests (AND - more important - the RIGHT chinrest for me) for the next 34 years - so I guess that I'm still using one (a Wolf standard Secondo) tells what I think of them.

I do hold the instrument between my jaw and collar bone, with jut the weight of my head (I think). But the shoulder rest gives me a better angle and my vibrato is better controlled in 1st and 2nd position. If my shoulder rest drops out, as it sometimes does, its not a big problem - I can keep going without it.

I think it is foolish to prescribe for or against the SR without taking account of the players physique and physical probelms..

There are great players who use them (more and more of them) and those who don't.

Andy

[D_A]

That's pretty dramatic and impressive that due to that one class, you were immediately able to go restless. What did you change that enabled you to be so comfortable so quickly (or is it something that you can adequately describe)?

[Stephen Fine]

As good as Prof. Dunham's lecture was on the subject, I believe that it was only partially responsible. I think it was just my time. That might sound like a bit of a cop-out, but I've been trying to go restless for some time, and it finally felt right.

An important concept that Prof. Dunham talked about was the security of the instrument. It was trapped between his neck, shoulder, collar-bone, and the heel of his left thumb. Hmm... I wish I could describe more.

[Stephen Fine]

Mr. Victor,

One of the interesting thing about many of the great players I've spoken with about the issue is that most of them wish that they could go restless. I think that any decent teacher will indeed realize that the player's physique and physical problems enter into the equation, but I also believe that much of what they say about shoulder rests creating more problems than they solve is true.

[crazy jane]

I'm impressed by a violist who can play well without a pad.

Most use one.

My daughter gave hers up this summer, but she and her teacher (who plays w/o) agreed that she plays better with it. She's small, though.

As for Rosand's comment,

Quote:

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He claimed that using the rest dampens the sound that in fact when the instrument makes direct contact with your body it uses your body as a resonance chamber

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--yeah, we've heard this a lot around here. All I can say is that what I consider to be the greatest tone out there today is produced by a player who uses a shoulder pad: Gil Shaham. (His technique is not too shabby, either.)

I like thom's comments--very logical and simple and true.

J.

[technique_doc]

Go for it (with the Kun), they are excellent and far better than a sponge or similar. If you can play without, play without , but if you are like me and enjoy the freedom and ability to relax left hand more, go for a rest. Kun is one of the best and if you get the feet on the shoulder side low and those on the chest side high, you can still get the fiddle as flat as you want!

T_D.....he say yes!

PS All my best student use Kun and I don't see the conservatoires or national youth courses complaining.

Ah....the infernal shoulder rest....

[technique_doc]

Keith, don't do this to me you old stirrer!!!

'If you think it's hard to shift without a shoulder rest, you are a wimp, and should probably stick to fiddling in the first position.'

CarloJSB, Donna17, myself and many others paid homage to the no-rest crew by experimenting with our shifting - I don't need to tell you the result

[thom]

One related question occurs to me that is interesting. I use a Flesch-style chinrest (it goes over the tailpiece). I think most people use the Guarneri-style chinrest. I wonder if the type of chinrest used makes any difference in the ease with which a player can adapt to playing without a shoulder rest. I would be interested in knowing if anyone out there has any relevant experience (not opinions -- I know you all have those -- but experience).

[paperpuncher]

Hello,

I have only been taking violin lessons since May. I started out not using a shoulder rest, but then for a short while it seemed helpful (maybe a month). I don't use one at all anymore. I believe the reason is that it just feels more comfortable without one, but to my knowledge a shoulder rest was not used by those great artists of the time periods that the much sought after violins were produced. Whatever the true reason is, I no longer use a shoulder rest. If in the future I feel there is a need, I won't be bashful to try one again.

[bleeviola]

I play a thick viola with a center-mounted Flesch chinrest (no hump) and a Kun Super SR. As for the argument that Kuns fall off, I have discovered a Kun knock-off called "Christino" that stays on my violin better than a Kun - rock solid in my experience.

This topic does come up very frequently, but it is important. If you look at people's bodies, and compare their shapes and sizes, it becomes obvious that different solutions will be necessary.

[ondinaperret]

I think, as has previously been posted on this thread, the most important is what you feel comfortable with! When one does not feel comfortable physically (or mentally, but that is another topic), then it hinders you. Experiment... try without, if it is uncomfortable, then try with, and try as many models as you can or sponges as you can, if that still doesn't work, then look at chin-rest set ups etc.

I started playing violin with shoulder rest, I went from Wolf to Kun to Sponge and ended up with no rest which is how I feel most comfortable with. Because of my training (dance) I started to analyze why... I have a long neck so it made no sense to be "rest-less". Then I realized that I have and underbite - that means that your lower jaw exceeds your top jaw, so whenever I used a shoulder rest, my neck vertebrae would collapse because of unnatural position - so in my case it was a totally physiological choice.

There are too many arguments for or against, so I think the most important thing is for you to try all the possible variations (including chinrests) until you feel the most comfortable! as has been said on this thread, the more comfortable you feel, the better you will play!

This, in the end, is a very personal question as it depends on so many factors!!!

[Roderick Quiros]

I use a kun, but when I forgot my rest a few weeks ago, I used a Mach One at my teacher's place, and found it to be quite comfortable, maybe even more compact and out of the way than the Kun. I'm happy with my rest, but the Mach One looks and feels very ergonomical. The plastic model with the leather pad costs the same as a kun.

[Daniel]

In regards to chinrests suited for playing sans shoulderrest, I think a lot of it depends on how you're going to hold the violin up. If you are going restless and still holding the violin up primarily with the chin/neck, as opposed to primarily holding the violin up with your left arm, you might find that you have very different preferences. In my own experience, I started out with a Strad (over-the-tailpiece) chinrest, and during that time, I held the violin up primarily with my chin/neck. I tried to find a side-mounted chinrest that was as comfortable as the Strad chinrest because I preferred the sound (this topic just came up on The Pegbox), but I couldn't find a chinrest that I liked. Recently, much like Lymond, I had an "epiphany" of my own, and now I hold the violin up almost 100% with my left hand (not trying to start an endless flame debate, but it's necessary to my story). When I made this change to my posture, I found that I actually preferred the feel of a side-mounted chinrest I had lying around the house.

[Stephen Fine]

Gil Shaham certainly doesn't have the greatest tone out there today. To say this with Perlman still around is crazy. I suppose it's a matter of taste, but I can think of a number of artists with superior tone... even IF Shaham has the best tone, who's to say that his tone couldn't improve without a shoulder rest?

[staylor]

Quote:

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"Your life will be enriched beyond belief by using the Search function and reading earlier threads on this topic."

I love Keith's touch of humor. I would only add that there are many, many other shoulder rests on the market.

I will refrain from adding any more comments -- a decision for which we can all be thankful, and that I hope others will emulate.

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La Folia, I was just getting a bit worried over here. It's good you didn't let it out in the end. The unmentionable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!h??????????

[La Folia]

"As for the argument that Kuns fall off, I have discovered a Kun knock-off...."

A new way to knock off a Kun? Cool!

staylor,

What we obviously need is a big playoff and juggling contest to settle all outstanding debates once and for all. The winner will juggle a Kun, a Play-On-Air, one of those big, shaped sponges, a doorstop, and a stuffed muskrat, all without dropping a modern Guarneri copy by ______ (pick your favorite modern maker), and while playing whole notes on open strings using a Russian bow hold. Points will be awarded for form and for best tone. Points will be subtracted for dents.

[SteveLaBonne]

Isn't it amazing the way, one way or another, the shoulder rest threads always manage to grow and grow? (He says hypocritically, while contributing to the phenomenon. )