Thevi_Olin Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 How about a different approach to the shoulderrest thing? I noticed Heifetz changes the rotation/angle of his violin when playing for each string. With his chin I suspect. This is not possible when using a rest. What changes do you have to make to your technique if you want to play without a rest? I guess this should challenge some teachers out there. My teacher is not able to explain. He uses a rest and is convinced that it doesn't make a difference. 'its all in the bow' I guess he's just defending his choice....
concertA Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 I had to play once without my shoulder rest and it was very uncomfortable and the violin kept sliding around. So, this is a good question--how does one control the violin without a shoulder rest? And is our definition of shoulder rest anything that comes between the violin and the player? For example I use a small pad-is that really a shoulder rest? I consider it to be. What about a cloth or chamois?
Matthew_D_Green Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 I think that, if you are serious about it, you should go to a teacher who plays that way and teaches that way.
stephen redrobe Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 "I noticed Heifetz changes the rotation/angle of his violin when playing for each string. With his chin I suspect. " Dear Thevi, this is a very good observation. Without giving everything away immediately, I ask you to consider the fact that the bridge is curved - as it must be - and that the bow is a very precise weight and balance. Please consider also the type of chinrest used by Heifetz. Dear concertA, a pad, sponge, chamois, old stocking or stuffed muskrat is not a shoulder rest.
Paganiniest Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 To me is a visual thing. You see the bridge round, and that is it. Is how the shoulders shoud be. No shoulder rest. What can I say. Pag
StringDad Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 A sponge is not a shoulder rest? Well, gosh darnit, then I do not -- nor does my daughter -- use a shoulder rest (and neither does my other daughter, but she wouldn't, being a pianist)!!!! Yay! Yay! Yay! I've been on the wrong side all along and never knew it...I feel like that bat (Stella Luna) who thought she was a bird....now, I know what team I'm on. I feel so sorry for all you folks who use shoulder rests. Why? (I'm not sure, but I'm going to reread all posts on shoulder rests and then reiterate them.) I feel that my life has changed. I'll probably have different friends now, too. Maybe a wardrobe change as well...
Michael Darnton Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Aaron Rosand teaches students to hold the violin by having them put their left arm all the way around in front and over the opposite (right) shoulder, laying the left hand flat on the right shoulder blade. Holding the violin by the E-string side of the upper bout (thumb on the top, fingers on the back), then lay the violin on your shoulder, under your chin. That gives approximately the right starting point for both the violin and the shoulder. I watched him do this a number of times with students in a couple of master classes, and it seems to work perfectly for the players involved. I play cello, not violin, but when I tried it, it seemed immediately comfortable. That's a starting point, though--I'm reminded of a video of Milstein on stage before a rehersal, playing gnat-notes as he looked around behind him over both shoulders watching people come in--when the violin had slipped down onto his upper arm, without stopping, he bounced it back up on his shoulder, without interrupting his playing. :-) I think the essence of it is that the violin is supported by the left hand one way or another most of the time, rather than the chin death grip (look, ma, no hands!) now taught.
stephen redrobe Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 F... me!. That's a terrific post Michael. Which reminds me...there is something I must ask you about bridge height. When I figure out exactly what I'm trying to ask, I'll put it on Pegbox if you'd oblige.
DPalm Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Those that use rests, we see gouge marks on the back of the violins from where these contraptions dig in. Its nice to see the varnish wear by the rub of the clothing in the correct places. In a few years of constant use these violins have that beautiful antique look that LOOKS natural, because it is. Something the copyiers never seem to get right.
iivopet Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 I don't use any rests... not even chinrest. it just felt normal to me, and my violin sounded better to my ear. at a big concert hall there isn't really a change between "violin with rest" and "violin without rest".... well this is just my opinion I've got some personal reasons for this too but let's not talk about them now
stephen redrobe Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 Incidentally Fritz Kreisler never used a shoulder rest. The things had not been invented then. What is less well known is that he almost never used a chinrest either, when playing live; and never, ever used a chinrest whilst making a recording.
technique_doc Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 We may be getting onto some useful talk. I use a rest and DO ADJUST the angle of the violin a great deal, I tend to shift my weight and the angle of my torso to facilitate this. In my experiments playing without, there is slightly more reliance on the 'double contact' of the left hand and the violin sits higher on the collar bone. I look more old-fashioned and quite Menhuin-like, but the angle of the violin (i.e. the direction 'off centre' of the instrument) means small changes in bow arm as well. Normaly with a rest, if the stand is at 12 o'clock, the violin is at say 10.30. without rest say 9.30. So in my case there is a knock-on effect of not using the rest, one that changes the 'look' of my playing. Incidentaly, I saw a young 'prodigy' today and his posture was awful - at least I don't have this problem either way! TD
technique_doc Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 I am not familiar with the chin death grip to which you refer. It may seem like this when doing the look-ma-no-hands, but in general play I use NO grip whatsoever and encourage my pupils (through rigorous work) to do the same. No nasty marks on neck, just nice'n'relaxed. TD
Scott Bailey Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 As long as you keep the scroll up, you don't need to clamp down on the violin with anything. Gravity keeps it in place against your collarbone. If I let go with my left hand (to turn a page or whatever), I momentarily raise my left shoulder some, but I sure don't play like that.
technique_doc Posted January 9, 2003 Report Posted January 9, 2003 In reply to: As long as you keep the scroll up, you don't need to clamp down on the violin with anything. Gravity keeps it in place against your collarbone. Absolutley - that's exactly how I feel it.
altistitar* Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 When playing without a rest I'm much more relaxed, because I don't have to hold my viola with my chin and shoulder. I also feel I get a better sound without a rest. But there is one big reason why I still play with a rest: I can't shift when supporting the weight of my viola with my left hand! I've been searching the answer to this for some time. When I was listening to Simon Rowland-Jones' masterclass he explained the principles of playing without a rest to one student but when I tried it at home it didn't work very well for me. If I learned to shift well without a rest I'd toss it right away! My teacher is no help, because he plays with a rest. HOW DO YOU DO IT???
Michael Darnton Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 I think you mis-spoke yourself. You're familiar with the death grip (that's why you mentioned ugly marks); you just don't teach it. Someone must, though--look at all those oozing necks on violinists. :-)
mthss Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 Luke [heavy breathing], convert to the dark side, Luke. [more heavy breathing] Ok, I've been playing with a rest since I started, but last night I again tried playing "sans rest". Lordy,lordy,lordy, what do you know.... The fiddle just sat right there on the collarbone with the top portion of the shoulder just touching the back (thanks for the Rosand description Michael). No Vulcan chin death grip either! And the best part? Felt more relaxed and tone (finger placement) seemed more "on" (via the tuner) and natural on some of the passages I've had some trouble with. I think I'll try it "sans rest" for a while. A couple of hurdles will be getting used a slightly new feel/position and building up endurance (found whenever you change position slightly). The major hurdle will be trying to break it to my teacher whom, I think, is an avid shoulder rest fan -- SURPRISE!
K544 Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 Yes, it is much harder on a viola, particularly a big viola. The scroll is heavy, and it is way out there. It is also very hard to hold a viola scroll high for any length of time just because one's arm gets tired when extended in that position for very long. You might find that playing with a small pad under your shirt will provide enough additional support to pretty much solve the problem. Even with that, more downward pressure with the chin on the viola will in any event be required than with the violin, and you will have to hold the instrument lower. (At least that is true for me). The real benefit of playing without a clamp-on rest, in my opinion, is really quite straightforward: the instrument is held at an angle more nearly parallel with the floor, so bowing across all four strings is closer to the horizontal plane than the vertical. I find that keeps the bow more balanced and controlled.
technique_doc Posted January 10, 2003 Report Posted January 10, 2003 Yes, of course know what you mean, just being d's advocate. The neck marks aren't necessarily due to death grip are they? Kennedy (for ex.) suffers but he's also not that relaxed and claims allergy? to the chinrest.
SteveLaBonne Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 Yes, I've been working to get that balanced-on-the-collarbone feeling myself, because in the past I have gripped the fiddle too tightly with my jaw. I find that going padless doesn't cause me problems in playing but does get uncomfortable after a pretty short while due to a sore collarbone (probably a sign that I still have a way to go in completely getting rid of the squeezing.). So I'm much happier if I have a little padding, plus a nonslip surface. For me a Playonair, not too blown up, is just right. (A pad under the shirt provides the cushion but not the grippy surface.) On the viola I really wouldn't want to do without the Playonair (blown up even less than the one on my violin due to the deeper ribs). I would like to wean my Kun-addicted daughter onto a Playonair eventually. I've always hated Kun-type rests because I can't stand the feeling that the instrument is nailed one spot, plus they do indeed encourage the "death grip" because they give you the idea that the fiddle is supposed to be nailed into place.
iivopet Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 In reply to: HOW DO YOU DO IT??? I just put my violin up and hold it there. it's not difficult. and Altistitar, playing without a shoulder rest doesn't really change your viola's tone. it just sounds louder to YOUR ear.
AnAmateur Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 I think that playing with a shoulder rest is like riding a tricycle, playing without like a bicycle and playing Milstein style is like riding a unicycle. It took a while but my "bicycle" is pretty good and I am getting a slight knack for the "unicycle". Seriously, one of the biggest challenges in dropping the shoulder rest is learning how to shift. My teacher provided the following three rules. They seemed obvious but I still find myself having to "make them happen" in my playing. 1. Shift on a finger on a string 2. Shift to a finger in a position 3. All shifts are slow Some even more fundamental rules that have helped are to shift upward by moving the who hand as a unit and shift downward by starting the shift with the fingers. The rest of the hand follows almost instantaneously after the start. Other important thoughts (to me) are maintain thumb and skin contact at the base of the first finger, having the hand in a thrown back position and having a "flatter" finger posture.
altistitar* Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 In reply to: playing without a shoulder rest doesn't really change your viola's tone. it just sounds louder to YOUR ear. Well actually it does, because when I play without a rest my shoulders and bow arm are more relaxed -> I can get a better tone. My question wasn't "how to hold the instrument without a rest?", I asked how is one supposed to shift (vaihtaa asemaa) when playing without one. Can't anyone describe it?
stephen redrobe Posted January 11, 2003 Report Posted January 11, 2003 The link below will take you to a page from the ridiculously difficult concerto in F# min by Ernst. It is from the personal copy of my friend Aaron Rosand which he used in his amazing premiere recording in the 1970s [the first recording 100 years or so after it was written!]. Please note his amusing little memo to himself re:- the chin!. It is very revealing - occasionally one does have to press with the chin or shrug the shoulder, but only occasionally. It goes with the territory, but then one relaxes after it is done. www.stephenredrobe.com/ernst1.jpg
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