Guy_Gallo Posted October 25, 2002 Report Posted October 25, 2002 I've come across a fiddle that has ONE of it's corners (upper left) non-mitred. That is, instead of the three purfling strips cut to a point/bee-sting, they abutt perpendicularly. Error? Signature? Freak? Something that happens a lot and I've never heard tell?
fiddlecollector Posted October 26, 2002 Report Posted October 26, 2002 Don`t worry about it,i`ve just been looking at close ups of an Amati and all the corners are butted but cleverly into a long point.That said even Amati must have had bad days ,it doesn`t seem to have affected the auction price though.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 26, 2002 Report Posted October 26, 2002 All 4 corners w/ the black running across the white? Which Amati was that? Among a good number of other makers I can think of, Cuypers (pere) is known to have produced purfling corners as described (but he butt jointed all 4, not just one). I believe I have a photo of one here asomewhere... If I have time, I'll post it.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 26, 2002 Author Report Posted October 26, 2002 That's what I can't figure. All four of the back corners and three out of four table corners are well mitred. Why would one butt-join just one...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 26, 2002 Report Posted October 26, 2002 Falstaff; I'd guess one out of four is an error... Here's a photo of a Cuypers for those interested.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 26, 2002 Author Report Posted October 26, 2002 It gets even stranger. Each of the four is slightly different. The upper left, as posted, as an open abutting join. The lower left is a clean mitre with bee-sting into the corner from the outer black. The upper right is carefully mitred, but the bee-sting is on the inner black so that it touches and joins the point. The lower right has a "closed" abutting (much like your Cuypers). n.b. the corners on the back of the instrument are all normal bee-sting mitres, very precise.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 26, 2002 Author Report Posted October 26, 2002 Since close ups with my digital seem to be very limited in getting detail, I've done a sketch.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 26, 2002 Report Posted October 26, 2002 Sorry... I guess maybe I don't understand what you're asking? If you are asking if this occurs; Yes, especially when the purfling is installed in a hurried fashion... Is it a significant indicator that it's a specific maker or workshop? No... although it may be a characteristic of a certain makers or workshops and/or indications that it's not certain makers or workshops. I think I mentioned in the Klotz thread that details such as this are good ways to confirm that one has identified a maker, workshop or school (as long as you have the details "right"), but poor tools to use to identify a maker workshop or school taken on their own. If I'm missing the point, please let me know.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 26, 2002 Author Report Posted October 26, 2002 Jeffrey, Your answer is pretty much the kind of thing I'm trying to learn by posting. When it looked like only one corner was different I thought perhaps it might be a "signature" others have seen in other instruments OR (as you said) simple error. When it then turned out each of the four corners were distinctly different it seemed very deliberate. So the question changed a little -- has anyone seen such a collection of corners. And I guess the subtext question: since the back is so consistent in the corners and the front is not, perhaps it's a Frankenviolin. I'm not suggesting this a) hurried purfling or puzzled purfling is enough to identify anything. Just wanted to know if it signifies to anyone here (who have likely all seen more instruments than I have).
fiddlecollector Posted October 27, 2002 Report Posted October 27, 2002 Hi Jeffrey,thought you might comment on that!!!!!!! The violin in question has definitely all corners butted against the black on the back but the front is less clear. It is a Nicola Amati c.1643 in Christies New York East catalog from Friday 4th May 2001.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 27, 2002 Report Posted October 27, 2002 Hi falstaff; Thanks... I was just getting fuzzy on what you wanted to know... Something else that may be a possibility: It's a bit more difficult to produce neat corners in the spruce, especially if the maker is rushed, as the wood "speads" a little if the purfling is forced into the groove. This sometimes results in "stange joints" Fiddlecollector; Interesting.... Thanks for the infomation. I'll look at that photo (I missed that auction). Did it sell (don't have my auction lists with me at home)?
Guy_Gallo Posted October 27, 2002 Author Report Posted October 27, 2002 Can you say more about Spruce "spreading?" Is this over time? Is this the case with other table woods? Pine? (What else is used for tables?) Which brings up another question -- perhaps better in another thread. Is there a resource (Web or otherwise) that you know of that would help one learn how to tell the difference among the woods used for table and purfling?
fiddlecollector Posted October 27, 2002 Report Posted October 27, 2002 I don`t know if it sold,there also a Storioni on the front cover ,one corner on the top right back is right messy,he must have had something in his eye at the time!
ornati Posted October 27, 2002 Report Posted October 27, 2002 I was hoping that our esteemed colleague Nemesis would step up to the task. But in light of his silence, I have gone to my library to do some research. In Appendix VI of the Hill book on Antonio Stradivari is the only serviving entry from FussyButt Anna's diary. I've taken the liberty of translating it from the Old King James English. It reads... On a cold and gray Cremona mornin', I burned down the house, but it wasn't my fault. Here are the events that lead up to the kitchen fire. Antonio: Yo, Paolo. Uh, finish dis corna fo me, will youz? Paolo: Sure, Poppi. Moments later... Antonio: What is dis? You call this a mitre? Have you been drinkin again? Paolo: Ah forget it. Poppi, I quit. I'm gona geta real job selling women's clothing. Antonio: Yo, Frankie. Uh, finish dis udder corna fo me, will youz? Frankie: Sure, Pops Moments later... Antonio: Momma mia! Where you learned to do dat? Omo, show himz how itz done. Omo: Okay, Daddio Moments later... Antonio: Carumboso! Why dunt nuttin fit? FussyButt, I need some chicken soup. Bambini, watch, dis is how to make a corna.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 27, 2002 Report Posted October 27, 2002 Nice, ornati! falstaff; I was speaking of the spruce "spreading" under the presure of forcing in the purfling to the groove. It is a soft wood... I've seen tops made of a number of softwoods (cedar, etc.), but spruce is the most common choice.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 28, 2002 Author Report Posted October 28, 2002 Jeffrey, Got ya on the spreading. I know spruce is the most common. But would you be able to readily recognize a pine table? If so, what would be the telltale? Or is it just an ability that comes with familiarity? I have a feeling I'm answering my own question with that last sentence... Thanks for all the help. Sorry if some of the questions seem a bit dense. I'm learning how to look at these things. -Guy
Jeffrey Holmes Posted October 28, 2002 Report Posted October 28, 2002 Guy (falstaff); I don't think your questions are dense... Familiarity is a huge help... but even then, there are a number of woods that one doesn't see often (which can really throw you). Spruce has a look and structure (reflectivity, "ray" pattern, etc.) that I believe you will find not repeated in a cedar or fir... Just to confuse you , many of the British fiddle books refer to spruce and other conifer tops as "pine". The best system for wood ID I know of is to examine the end grain structure... sometimes difficult under varnish and with only about 4 mm showing... I think there is a book out there that explains the procedure by R. Hoadley.
Guy_Gallo Posted October 28, 2002 Author Report Posted October 28, 2002 That does confuse things. So when the Hills speak of a Pine table they could be speaking of a Spruce table? Did any makers use what we would call Pine? Or are the table woods Spruce and Cedar? -Guy
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