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Posted

I've been wanting to say something and don't quite know how to begin. I am perhaps reluctant to post because I assume I will be dismissed or flamed or considered an idiot.

You never can tell when an innocent question or opinion will be greeted with generosity and when it will be greeted with contempt.

But I'll venture anyway.

We have over 4000 registered members of this discussion list. Of that, how many, I wonder, consider themselves professional string players. Probably not many. And probably a great many of the non-professionals -- students, beginners, and adult beginners -- come to this list for one reason and one reason only: they have discovered, whatever their talent, whatever their ambition, whatever their realistic limitations, they have discovered their love for the violin.

It's a difficult yearning -- this wanting to play the violin -- as mastery is so hard won, so often impossible no matter the passion or intellect. It's just that unforgiving an instrument.

And so, when I come onto this board and find obviously talented, working/teaching professionals posting strongly held opinions that

[*]seem to be at the expense of other members or

[*]are disrespectful to other professional violinists or

[*]gather together into a defensive clique with a great feeling of "us vs them"

I cannot help but wonder if the posters realize how precious their talent (and opinions) are to the students among us.

I've lurked through several threads where clearly great musicians or composers or schools have been summarily dismissed. The Oistrakh vs. Heifetz thread. Twelve tone vs Not. Romantic vs Baroque. Modern instrument makers vs the Chicago Mafia.

They all seem to boil down to "I'm right and you're a fool."

I'm all in favor of pride and arrogance and certitude. I'm all in favor of preferences and high critical standards (I'm a writer and a teacher of writing and would never suggest some sort of touchy-feely everything goes). But. Surely strongly held opinions can be expressed without seeming contemptuous of all on the other side.

I dare say many here would give their eye teeth to be able to play well enough to be considered part of the club. We beginners are already on the outside because of our novice status. Postings that are closed, adamant, cruel or clever, ungenerous or contemptuous -- well, they don't really manage anything other than to close off discussion from the great majority or members who, I'm sure, would like nothing better than to learn.

More and more, it seems, people here are vested in their answers. That they are right. That they must be right. This, in my opinion, is a very limited kind of discourse. It's inaccessible.

As Chekhov said: there are no right answers, only properly formulated questions.

I suppose I would ask those who consider themselves teachers to realize that there are many here hungry to learn. But that teaching is much more than being right, or adamant. Arrogance in one's knowledge is not the same thing as self-congratulatory adamance.

Remember, some of us here would give our eye-teeth to play as well as the lowliest of the greats. Or even the lowliest of the great's students.

Posted

Falstaff -

A very well thought out and well expressed post. The message that I hear is that, in a public forum, we should all consider that many people, not just the fanatic posters will be reading what we write. Diplomacy, tact, intelligence, consideration, and expertise are all appreciated.

I've been part of the (among others) of the 12-tone discussion. I've tried to be honest, knowing that others will not agree with me. I think that as long as posts are civil, they should be taken as one person's opinion, nothing more.

You are right (IMHO) that most of us are here because we love violin, and we love music.

But this is forum. Here we talk. Opposing opinions make a good soup.

Posted

I love your post. You said everything so eloquently. You are right. I have complained about posts being closed. I have seen people kicked off for opinions, I have been kicked off myself. Some would say, you're no one on the Fingerboard, until you've expressed yourself to the point that you've been kindly "removed"! Made to disappear! You are let in again, after a good talking to.

It's unfortunate. We used to have some really good conversations, even arguments on here. I miss HKV, Lydia, and many others. The "fire" of our passion is doused. And I must say that those were, in my opinion, the good old days of the Fingerboard. I learned the most then.

I agree that the board does not need to tolerate foul language, or threats, or outright slander to another poster. However, I have seen a good many discussion stopped in the middle, which just leaves those that were interested, very frustrated.

Censorship can be a good thing, but like so many things, too much of a good thing, is a bad thing.

Posted

In reply to:

Opposing opinions make a good soup.


Absolutely right. However, opposing opinions need not be expressed in such a way as to make your opponent feel disrespected. Teaching teaches how to think about what is right; not simply what is right.

It seems to me, often, the arguments here need to think more and be right less.

It seems to me that the moderators have never censored an opinion. They have censored the manner in which the opinion is expressed. If an opinion can only be expressed at the expense of others, then it isn't a very well supported opinion.

It is when discussions have devolved into glib disrespect and obvious baiting of other members that the delete button has been used -- perhaps even over used recently.

I believe that if the basic tenet that we are all capable of learning from one another -- even in our absolute divergence of opinion -- were adhered to, then the moderators would have a much easier job.

This isn't a stage. This isn't a spotlight for a handful of professionals to flaunt their knowledge or flack for their schools. I'm all in favor of a good fight. As long as it is carried on with generosity of spirit, and, most importantly, with some modicum of grace.

If it isn't, then there's no point in joining the fight. I can't possibly teach anything, and likely I can't possibly learn either.

Posted

I agree with you in that there needs to be no disrespect evident in the posts. I am a new violinist/fiddler. I suck. I wish to sin that I was better. But I practice and improve. I'm not sure if it's because I have gotten to where I am through hard work and the rough road. But people who find it necessary to flame others because their opinion is different, or because they don't have as much knowledge in an area are pretty much worthless in my book. Arrogance is just another form of ignorance.

I'm hear to learn a few tricks and to get to know the violin and it's history better. I absolutely love the violin. It doesn't matter squat to me whether I'm great or not. And if some here think that they are better than others here because of it. Step up to the plate. Your a writer. Anyone here better at it than you? I'm not. But I'll bet you I can smoke everyone else here at High Performance Computing. We all have our areas of expertise.

I ramble on and on. But this hits a nerve with me. I DO NOT like people who decide to be arrogant and dismissive of others because of their lack of knowledge. It just irks me somethin fierce.

But on a lighter side. I see a lot more helpfull type posts than ugly posts. So, I'm hoping that this is all just a few disgruntled and unhappy people we are chatting about.

Posted

Thank you for this post. I really enjoyed the way you wrote your comments and valued the sanity with which you presented them. One of the reasons I no longer aspire to be in the mainstream of professional performing is due to exactly the same kind of problems to which you refer.

It is obviously passion which drives people to be so sure of themselves and dismissive/fearful of others because their experience makes them that way. I for one, am sometimes inflexible in my approach to teaching because so much of what goes on is very poor and having seen/witnessed and experienced teaching at the highest standard I honestly believe that some things are certainly right and certainly wrong. I don't know everything and it helps if we can all learn from each other and any 'posturing' on the boards is simply pointless. If a good teacher cannot learn a little something from even the lowliest of pupils then he/she has either permanently closed his mind or lost the flexibility to adapt. I suspect the 'heart' will soon follow too. We should all be more humble (myself included) and appreciate others, otherwise why take on this lifelong challenge?

The person who says the most, in the loudest voice, often has the least to say.

Best Wishes,

TD

Posted

Amen to this post! I was just posting yesterday about starting a string quartet, and it was just that -- a question. I am well aware that I am not yet in a position to start one or become a part of one (and I may never be) but it was nice to have the one comment which I received. I think you are right about the people who flaunt what they know and don't care who they offend. Then there are those who are in the stratosphere in their playing (so if I offend someone by mentioning the violinist Joshua Bell, it is their problem for reading this reply). He is possibly the best violinist out there right now but when you meet him, as I did this summer, he is so nice and so humble and he of course is an extremely talented individual. I heard some of the students at the music school talking about him, stating that he was going to teach them for the rest of the week -- and help them with their violin playing. It doesn't get any better than this for the up and coming violinists of the world.

I am still learning the violin and it is the one thing in the world, as my instructor says that is an "equalizer". He is certainly right about that. This instrument can bring anyone to their knees if not crawling. I hope we never conquer it -- because this world seems to have conquered everything else (well, almost everything).

Posted

I thoroughly agree with this thread.

I am one of those people lurking in the background, reading and learning, seldom responding.

Sometimes that is due because I have no knowledge to add, sometimes because I don't know what

question to ask.

I have been playing the violin since i was 7 (I'm 32) but I am by no means a professional.

One thing I have learned about written communication, since the email generation really began, is that

it is extremely easy to offend without meaning to, due to the lack of facial expressions and tone of voice

to temper a comment. Once someone reacts angrily to something, it is difficult to go back and apologize,

and things just seem to escalate.

I have learned, the VERY hard way, to re-read everything I type before I post, and avoid sarcasm and

subtle jokes that can be misinterpreted. Strained relationships are hard to repair.

I have seen very active forums (unrelated to violins) dissolve into a flame fest and become almost

unused. I don't want to see that happen with this forum.

Maybe someday I will feel more confident to post here, but right now I will just lurk and learn.

I encourage everyone to take care in being respectful to each other, and attempt to take things said

in the most positive way intended rather than allowing themselves to be easily offended.

Posted

I agree with your sentiments, but I must admit that I am getting a bit sick of the topic. I think we need to move on.

If we stopped discussing all this there would be a lot more opportunity to discuss the violin, which would arguably be a lot more interesting.

xania

Posted

I don't see how this dicussion in any way limits discussion of the violin.

It's not as if there's a limited amount of space on the forum.

I don't see how the topic of manners and grace can ever be exhausted.

And seems to me there's still a great deal unsettled about forum etiquette and what we should expect -- demand -- of one another.

In several other threads -- purportedly about things violinistic -- there are frequent references to the recently exiled center of the controversy. Another is completely devoted to the utter desolation his absence has brought to his coterie.

I have no problem with the issue being kept alive in that manner; I would hope no one has a real problem with it being kept alive in this manner.

--Guy

p.s. If Redrobe is allowed to post again, I will be the first to welcome him.

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