ebay - Finally, a real one.

[fubbi2]

It even has the original label !

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?V...item=1418144635

(but wait, there's more ! for only $19.99 we throw in a set of Ginzu strings ! Most people know that Tony used Ginzu string...)

[This is a nice looking instrument, but, shall we say, a trifle misleading description...?]

[steveg]

It is such a breath of fresh air to see an honest and informative seller.

He has obviously done his research, and is now ready to sell this $2,000,000.00 violin to the highest bidder on ebay

[Mark_W]

Why do these guys talk in circles? In one and the same paragraph he says, "If genuine, I'm making a vital mistake." What mistake? Then: "He told me this is genuine; though the sound PROVES IT TRUE, there's no cert." Finally, an afterthought about not being sure.

Whatever the instrument's merits, these tortured locutions would persuade me away from this seller.

[Michael Darnton]

See what fun it is when you sort them by price? I see that at least two people have been convinced enough to take the bait a cumulative total of 23 times.

[vathek]

come on you guys! the case says Julliard, so I bet the violin is real.

[Mike Powell]

Seems like eBay is loosing control of its sellers,

I have seen more cheats this year

than all previous years combined,

Sellers are using multiple IDs to bid up thier scheme,usually not sending whats pictured,

eBay has changed its policy recently about disclosing multiple identities of sellers, making it a safe haven for crooks,

Watch for the bidders with 0 or low feedbacks driving up the auction such as this and the Fagnolia auction,

The seller can be a mole among bidders,

eBay management is asleep at the

conference table again....oh well...until

investors catch wind of it!!!

Probably going to get much worse unless

eBay starts taking some responsibility for its sellers,

I dont think investors would appreciate this type of management if they were made aware of it,

sleep tight eBay management and sail on...

rocks can make big holes in your ship!

Regards,

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike Powell (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Leland]

"Talking up" a violin by the seller happens a lot and not just on e-bay. It can happen at a reputable violin shop, flea market, or antique shop. Ask for an opinion from a knowledgeable and trustworthy source such as a peer collector/player, or teacher.

[Michael Darnton]

It depends a lot on who your "peer collector/player, or teacher" is, as it also depends on who your shop is. I wouldn't be too fast to give blanket acceptance to either. I've met a few well-informed "peer collector/players, or teachers", but not many, and unfortunately the same reservation holds for shops.

[This message has been edited by Michael Darnton (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Leland]

Michael, you're exactly correct. I also wouldn't give "blanket acceptance" to anybody. I should have more specifically mentioned the benefit of getting more than one opinion from knowledgeable and trustwothy sources such as peers, collectors, players, and your teacher...

[administrator]

[ShadowHawk]

There is no doubt that all here are in agreement that the violin is not an authentic strad, nor are any of the others advertised as works of the orginal masters one might encounter on ebay, but just for grins, what do you think of the violin on its own merit; aside from the authors ridiculous description that is? I do like the varnish on the top and the scroll has nice shading on the side. All in all, I'd rate this (from visuals only) a fairly nice intermediate piece. The hill fittings go well with the overall color and that 'grainy' imaged back is nice. I doubt if the first picture of the back is actually from the violin being offered but if so, all the better. The peg box is clean but the pegs don't sit well. I'd say late chinese strad copy in the 3-500 hundred dollar range. Any takers?

[fubbi2]

I you stripped it of all the nice fittings, it wouldn't get the bids it's getting. I like the scroll, but the back displeases me, and the table OK, but nothing special. All in all, I'd agree with your Chinese intermediate student estimate.

[Barry J. Griffiths]

I'd have to disagree with the Chinese attribution (I never thought I'd see those two words together) but agree with it being a "student" level instrument. Chinese violins almost always have about a 1mm step at the pegbox end of the neck. The corners are not typical Chinese work and the antique varnish and distressing look more European. But, I could be 'vitally wrong'.

[ShadowHawk]

Hmmm... not sure I agree Barry but it's all speculation. I have what I consider to be an excellent chinese violin and your comment caused me to go back and look at my own. I didn't see the 1mm step you referred to. I did notice however that my pegs are not fitted correctly. They are too long and need to protrude a few millimeters beyond the pegbox exit holes. I'll have to correct that. Odd I had not noticed before. Here's mine... actually quite a different instrument than the one shown above so not a good comparison.

http://w3.one.net/~gough/violin/

[This message has been edited by ShadowHawk (edited 03-24-2001).]

[Barry J. Griffiths]

Shadowhawk,

I have the same violin in my shop, minus the fancy tailpiece. Mine does have the step. It's a small drop down from the back edge of the nut to the top of the walls of the pegbox.

[ShadowHawk]

Barry, I didn't see it at first but put a magnifier on it under strong light and can see a very tiny, gently sloping step under the nut onto the pegbox walls. I would have never seen this without a magnifying glass. I certianly cannot tell if such a step exists in the photos that Fubbi2 included above. I have to ask... what does the violin you have in your shop go for retail? The tailpiece on mine was already installed when I bought the instrument at the shop, although the owner had two others with more traditional hill tailpieces. They came very close in sound but were not quite as strong. I compared it to several Sandners in the same price range and the chinese model was far better. It even compared well to several Italian models in the shop which cost well over eight thousand. Hope yours plays and sounds as well.

[This message has been edited by ShadowHawk (edited 03-25-2001).]

[ShadowHawk]

Wow, three in a row.. but this one is interesting and to Barry. You indicated earlier that a chinese made violin can be identified by a 1 mm step down beneath the nut where the neck "steps down" to the top of the pegbox walls. Examine the european made gliga at this URL.

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?V...item=1417629175

[Guy_Gallo]

This 1mm step down is interesting to me.

I have a Chinese violin. It seems to have a tiny step down on the G side of the fingerboard, and no step down on the E side.

But the "step down" seems to start at the front end (not back end/pegbox end) of the nut (as in the gliga).

At the end of the fingerboard on the g side there is a tiny step down that starts where the nut starts. On the e side the nut and fingerboard are completely level.

[This message has been edited by falstaff (edited 03-26-2001).]

[steveg]

The "step that you are noticing is the 1 mm side wedge (rake) nessesary to raise the left side of the finger board toa djust for comfortable playing. This is not to be confused with "scoop" which makes room for the vibrations of the G string. If you can see a step under the nut, it signifies that the scroll was cut by machine.

Properly hand cut scrolls and necks have dimensions and angles that set the over stand, projection, and rake with out resorting to a step.

Store bought / precut, replacment necks come with a step, but any luthier who uses them planes the neck true before use.

[Barry J. Griffiths]

The step at the rear end of the neck, at the pegbox end of the nut, is a style of making associated with Cremona. It can be found on instruments from all over the world by makers who work in the Cremonese style. The Gliga example in the link above is an excellent example of the step in question. As far as luthiers removing that step on premade necks, I'd have to disagree. Many luthiers, including myself, use neck templates which incorporate that step as part of the neck/pegbox design.

[bob kogut]

I agree with Barry. In my fiddles, I prepare my neck with that step in place so that when I final plane the surface to meet the fingerboard,I don't run the plane and scraper over the front of the cheeks..Bob

[fubbi2]

This started with the supposition that you could tell a Chinese instrument by this 'step'. Now, it seems that it isn't true ? Is there a way to tell ?

[Michael Darnton]

If you read carefully, you'll see that the rule wasn't suggested to allow you to identify a Chinese instrument--it was put forward as a clue that the lack of which would *disallow* it being a Chinese instrument. I.e., all "X have black hair" is not the same statement as "black hair means it's an X".

[ShadowHawk]

Fascinating thread. I'm a bit confused about the context of Michaels analogy. I understood Barrys comment to imply that the step was a strong hint of a violin being chinese. I also understand that some european makes also have the step. The evidence suggests that the step really can't be used to determine geographical source, but rather, may identify the general "style", as in cremonese. From this we deduce that a violin, made in china, can be indentified as a cremonese style model, but not necessarily a chinese make. This begs the question, which is more important, the style or the actual geographical location? I suppose where it is made means nothing. After all, I see no reason why a fine Italian maker could not suddenly decide to live in China and make/sell his violins from there while continuing to build in the style of his homeland. Given this, all the value a label can add (assuming any value at all) is the makers name and the style after which the violin was fashioned. The "Made in <insert country>" then has absolutely no bearing on value or style. "Made in Germany" in no way means an instrument any better than one labeld "Made in Bucksnort, Tennessee!". (Yes, there really is such a place . Curiouser and Curiouser but very interesting.

[Michael Darnton]

The "step" is evidence of a modern approach to building, which if we really tracked it down, probably came from Sacconi. The reason for it is that when one puts a new fingerboard on an old neck, flattening the old neck, using the methods of the past, snicked the front off the pegbox because the front of the pegbox was level with the front of the neck. In order to eliminate that, in some relatively recent time, restorers started leaving a step when they did a graft on old instruments so the abuse didn't continue. This is something which has been picked up by makers who were trained in restoration, and by others with similar connections. If I can extend this in a direction that I don't factually know, since Sacconi was connected with the Cremona school, this probably worked its way through there as well, and from there to China. But it's most certainly not a key characteristic to identifying Chinese violins, which is why I made the black hair analogy. And, as I said, if you CAREFULLY read Barry's post, he doesn't say that it's a point of identification of Chinese violins; the LACK of it is a point of non-identification.

You're confusing the direction of cause and effect here, a common error of logic.