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About that violin on ebay . . .


Michael Darnton
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ShadowHawk;

I have pretty much stayed out of this discussion until this point, but your last post compels me to join in.

I have no problem with those who wish to purchase or sell on ebay, or with ebay itself. There is a demand and the venue fills it. We do see the results of these purchases on almost a daily basis, however.

Nine out of ten families that walk into our shop for help, after making their purchase, find that to bring the instrument to correct specification, or to repair physical problem inherent in their new instrument, will end up spending much more than the anticipated "set of strings and a new bridge". These are "novice" (as you put it) buyers who are simply trying to find a cheaper alternative to purchasing an instrument through a dealer. I don’t blame them for trying. I’m in the process of buying a piano for one of my daughters, and it’s a real “hit” on the ol’ budget. I honestly feel that in most cases (at least those we see), after accomplishing the required alterations, they will spend as much and sometimes more on the instrument than they might have in a showroom; or, they will decide to “do things on the cheap” and deal with the consequences in the instruments performance (in which case we give them a referral). I’m planning to purchase the piano from a pro.

Those who wish to lessen the risk might consider asking a professional, who is willing, about an item before committing a bid; or at least ask for list of questions to ask the seller in pointed terms;and offer to pay the professional for their time. This still is not even close to a “sure bet”, as the seller may not be able to answer the question properly, damage may be apparent to another novice seller, or the seller just might not tell the whole truth.

This is not to say that there are not "good deals", or honest people selling instruments, on ebay... It's just that the venue reminds me of a flea market.... lots of junk, few really nice fiddles, and a few if any real finds.

Those who have figured out the pitfalls and how to avoid them have my congratulations. If these same individuals support foundations that support music education, they have my thanks. Some of these foundations also have my assistance.

I agree with your point about the industry and use of "faux" labels... Some fiddles started out with them and other "adopted" them as they went along. but they are there. Hence they bring the questions. I completely understand why they are asked.

Concerning you views on masters;

For those who study identification, violin making and/or restoration, and reach a level of skill and reputation which allows them to work on (or make) high level instruments (and make a living at it), it seems natural that the choice would be to do so. It is also natural that it is what might be of most interest. The truth is, if it’s not worth $10,000 it’s probably not worth a $5,000 restoration... and it’s certainly not worth a $20,000 one.

Even so, those of us who work with more expensive instruments spend time here on the board are very likely to respond to honest questions like “what is a Conservatory violin”, or “has anyone ever heard of this maker, or “I have a bow branded “X”, or "what needs to be done to fix this". If you search the archives, I think you’ll find plenty of questions like these and plenty of responses by professionals. Why do we bother? Probably for a number of reasons. For myself, I can say that I enjoy it, find the interchange educational, enjoy feeling as though I’m contributing, and it’s (probably, although not overwhelmingly so) good for business.

I very much enjoy working with professional players and serious students.... That's what I do. This is not to say that I don't occasionally spend time with a family that has "no clue" where to start and what to look for concerning their 8 year old beginner. This has it's own rewards as well.

I do not respond to questions about value concerning ebay violins as a rule. I have my reasons; one of which is that I avoid valuing an item for sale in public venue. If you wish to read a past post on this subject , go to page 2 of:

http://fingerboard.maestronet.com/ubb/Foru...TML/000089.html

I find it interesting that you can call those who do choose to own old Italian instruments “arrogant”. Am I to assume that if others are interested in something you don’t understand, hear something you don't, do something you feel is impractical, or have different priorities than you do, they are “idiots”? To me, your statement showed it’s own form of arrogance.... or were you just blowing off steam?

I have a daughter who plays violin. She uses a 50-70 year old German 3/4 instrument that my wife and I restored for her. We frankly put more labor into it than it was worth... but she loves it (so it was time well spent). It’s not an dried out 200 year old Italian, but she hasn’t earned one yet, and presently can’t hear the difference. She can tell a good fiddle from a bad one, however.

Just for the record (and not to put aside my own enjoyment of Donuel’s creativity; especially in his posts); in Germany (which is one of the few countries that has an official process for this), it takes about 8 1/2 years of education to become a Master Violin Maker. There are about probably less than 1/2 dozen of them in the US.

Best wishes,

Jeffrey

quote:


Originally posted by ShadowHawk:

Your point is well made Michael, but consider all the postings where people seeking information about a violin they saw on ebay start their inquiry with something like, "I know I'm going to be flamed for this, but... ". That's a fair context and is indicative of the mentality people are beginning to adopt. A mentality that implies, "if it isn't a $10,000 violin, don't even ask...". I really have to wonder if we forget that part of the blame is the manufacturing industry, not the retailer, wholesaler, or auctioneer. It's unfortunate that so many violins include a label that indicates the maker and year the copy is modeled after rather than the modern manufacturer and year of production. Why should the novice know this by default? If they see what appears to be an old german violin, it's labeled german inside, includes a well known name, and is dated hundreds of years ago, it seems perfectly reasonable that they would ask the simple question, is it real? It is certainly annoying to those who get the same type question over and over again, but it is probably just as annoying to the new buyer that the industry has chosen such a misleading means of labeling popular, contemporary instruments. Further, it is extremely unlikely that the novice could ever hope to distinguish a poorly kept 60 year old violin from one that is a better kept 200 year old instrument. If other, manufactured products were labeled and offered in a similar manner, there would be charges of fraud flying in all directions... but in the world of stringed, orchestra instruments, we instead point an arrogant finger of omniscience at the innocent and yell, "go ahead fool! There's one born every minute". Then, after years of stuffy conservatism and practiced alienation, we look around the music classrooms of the nation and wonder why we can't find enough kids to form a student orchestra... oh, thats right... they're all playing guitar and pointing fingers at the violinist shouting "geek" and "long-hair". It does at times make me glad my daughter avoided my own stringed passion and chose to play flute in the band. The arrogance levels are about 400% lower, 200% friendlier, and actually foster an environment that draws kids in. I personally play a "cheap" $1,800 violin that I'll put up against any of the so called masters that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know who can hear the difference or see the difference in craftsmanship? About 1 in every 50 million people on this planet, that's who. The vaster majority would say, "they both sound beautiful". I'd say the fool isn't the poor guy who wondered if a $600.00 ebay offering was real or at least, worth the $600.00 they were thinking of spending. I'd say it's the idiot that spent more on a 200 year old piece of dryed out maple and spruce than most families can afford for a house because he/she thought it had that "special flavor" in the upper registers! What a crock of self-righteous, arrogant, ****-and-bull. I'll tell you what a master luthier is.. it's someone like donuel that takes a $200.00 clunker, spends a few hours turning it into a very playable piece of art that he then offers on ebay for a cost commensurate with what the average player should be paying for an instrument, then spends a good part of his spare time answering reasonable questions by the novice and pro alike in a fun and illuminating manner. The good news is that there appears to be a lot of donuel's here and I applaud everyone of them. I further applaud the initial author of this thread for asking if the German offering on ebay was real, fake, worth the asking price or any other question. That the violin was of poor quality was worth mentioning. That the author should take any heat whatsoever for daring to ask before buying is deplorable. That the industry created the very question he asked by routinely labeling products in what is easily a manner misconstrued by the masses is only indicative of why so many refuse to give to the creative arts... we are sometimes far too "creative" in our means of generating income.


[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Holmes (edited 03-17-2001).]

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Shadowhawk, it seems all the flames and arrogance are coming from your side of the wire here. Certainly you must realize that when you take it in your hands to ream out the whole stringed instrument world all at once that you're completely lacking focus, and just ranting. I'm always mystified by people who reverse the normal paradigm and argue that what's needed are lower standards for things. I've made this argument before, so I won't get too deeply here, but in every single category of item on this earth there's a line below which you're spending your money on garbage. On violins the line is pretty high (and is drawn not only on a basis of origin, but more importantly on condition--playability), but it's there, and a disproportionate number of this type show up on ebay. I'm sorry the line's high, and I sympathize with beginners, but why don't you go ask some teachers about how well students do on bad violins that don't work and sound like tin cans, and then think about whether you'd be doing any child a favor to put trash in his hands to try to learn on, instead of picking on me for trying to make every violin that comes through my hands good enough for anyone to take joy in playing---but also knowing when the job is hopeless or financially stupid.

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I'm privileged to have two moderators respond to me at once. Not unlike brain signals rushing to the source of pain. smile.gif

Let me say that I hold no brief for anyone here or anywhere. My point is not to be provocative but as stated by the moderators (albeit in different ways) to provide a glimpse into the global context of name/nationality/etc bashing often founded upon nothing but hot air. Time has a way in any event of proving or disproving commonly held beliefs and disbeliefs. I think enough has been said on Maestronet about these points.

On an indirectly related note, and applying the same arguments advanced I think we ought to move consciously away from any sort of bashing - whether it be German junkers, ebay, Chinese instruments, etc. There is much potential in Maestronet and the moderators should ensure that there is some vision of where it ought to go. It pains me to see the moderators jump into the arena to do their own soul bashing instead of lending an objective, dispassionate and kindly hand to fellow users. This is not to say that Jeff and Mike have not posted very informative and fun discussions because I have read many here. Credibility and trust are however easily eroded by arrogance and subjectivity.

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I have had ONLY good luck on E-bay, because in all cases I knew what I was buying.

I bought a Glaesel -- bought new by a father for her daughter, who then gave it in 6 months, for $125. My local "student instrument" store charges $499 for a used Glaesel, same model number, in poorer condition. (I later resold the Glaesel for $275 to another father -- and, having been to the same music store, he knew he got "a steal".)

I then bought an "Edw. Herrmann" bow -- silver mounted (I think model 420 as I remember -- it really is silver mounted), for $162. The bow lists for $459. My local luthier recambered it for $25. It plays great. $187 for a silver mounted pernambuco bow seems all right to me.

I then bought an old Bohemian violin for $225. Not great. But I wasn't thinking great, just better than the Glaesel -- and the seller let me try it out before purchase. I resold it when I got my new one for $525.

For my flute playing daughter, I bought an all-silver Pearl 761RB flute for $700. It had been played for a year by a music major at the University of Georgia, who had just graduated to a major ($10,000) flute. The flute lists for $2550. My local store sells it for $1895. The flute also came with a $75 carry case thrown in.

I've also bought rare books. Always felt satisfied. Why is this? Simply because I ALWAYS knew what I was buying before I did, why I was willing to pay what I did, and what I expected out of the purchase.

Once I got that down, E-Bay has turned out absolutely wonderfully for my musical family.

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Let me say I have the greatest respect for the moderators. As an attorney I daily face arguments which have to be analysed to sift form from substance, fact from fiction, etc. If sometimes in the process I play the devil's advocate it is not intended to be a personal attack but merely to force persons to think and be prepared to examine all angles, the obvious and not so obvious, etc.

In essence - I think therefore I am.

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Nemesis, In general controversial discussions on Maestronet seem to spring from a lack of specifics. If you were to list maker, appraiser, etc everyone would at least have a frame of reference for an opinion - but of course I can understand why you might not want to do so (and rightfully so) - just as Michael, Jeffrey, and others understandably are loathe to provide negative information or specifics themselves.

So it may be entertaining but not particularly informative to engage in such discussions. Don't misunderstand me, I love to read these posts and glean what I can (as much about the posters as the immediate subject) but its not worth anyone getting bent out of shape over. For my two cents worth I suspect a quality hand-made violin by a contemporary maker American maker will have a somewhat higher value in America even as a European made violin will have a slightly higher value in Europe simply due to familiarity and demand. But overall I would suspect they are comparable. The one wild-card might be the East European or top level Chinese makers - I don't know enough to judge those categories at all.

PS - I don't think Jeffrey has mean bone in his body or his mind - or any snobbishness I an detect. And Michael can be blunt but I certainly appreciate his willingness to keep us grounded close to the realities of the violin world.

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Norman:

What a wonderful thing, loaning instruments like that.

Like others, I pick up things on eBay when I know *exactly* what they are, what they are worth, etc. But not violins for me, I'm way out of my league there.

I think I'm a bit jealous that I don't know as much about all these kinds of violins as everyone else. smile.gif"><P>ItHow do you raise the funding for it?

deb

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I think the discussions and thoughts provoked by my earlier statements may carry more long term value than the statement content I wrote. It did at least demonstrate that there are two clearly delineated views with regards to the perceived or real value in a stringed instrument. That Jeffrey and/or Michael, our esteemed moderators, would think that any part of my earlier comments were personal flames is a bit dissapointing but understandable given the nature of the topic. Perhaps of more value is a reminder that my arguments had less to do with whether auction instruments were comparable to quality found in a luthiers shop and far more to do with the reaction of a discussion group to an individual who would simply ask a question regarding an instrument. I do believe many of the contributing authors here, and those who just enjoy reading, would find far more value in hearing the technical specifics of what makes an instrument compelling or "junk". Allow me to demonstrate by minor and obvious example. Provide that a writer asks about a Palatino violin on ebay. The general reaction MAY be a flaming tirade against the product that could easily be perceived by the inquiring author as a personal assault. If this were a gathering of master luthiers for the sole purpose of sharing inside trade secrets; sort of a "masters only" club, one might reasonably expect to experience a less than welcoming reaction. On the other hand, if the intent is a forum that fosters both knowledge sharing and good discussion of shared passions, then one should be able to reasonably expect a more intelligent response than something that sends the message, "It's junk and you're ignorant for even asking!". I'm paraphrasing of course but looking back over some replies, one can easily see the "sneering" in some reactions. That some brand offerings or ebay products are clearly poor choices or even junk is inarguable. The point to be made is that, although repetitive, there is value in a few lines indicating why? A professional luthier can offer a wealth of information that the unsuspecting buyer may not even think about. Let's use the Palatino as one example. Assume a person asks about one being offered on ebay. I believe a good response would include not just the warning to avoid, but enlighten the person as to the general reasons why? Offer a line discussing laminated woods versus carved solid. A word or two about sprayed laquer versus rubbed oil varnish. It is a fair assumption that many first time violin buyers simply need a few tips that can get them moving in the right direction. I often see violins offered that have cracks or other blemishes with a disclaimer that "it is easily fixed", or has "no effect on sound quality". These are often false statements but in fact, are statements made by people representing themselves as professionals. It's hard for the consumer to question suggest otherwise if the person owns the music store offering the product. The bottom line, after much long-winded, albeit often interesting discussion, is there is far more worth in constructive criticism of a product than in implied criticism of the person asking about the product. Some of Michaels own replies to Norman are evidence of this. In example, "I would think the mark of a good scam is that the victim walks away without both money and realization. :-)". The message here is that Norman not only was taken advantage of but was too stupid to realize it after the fact. If thats not an arrogant attack, I'm at a loss to better explain what is. I have every confidence that Michael is a master in his craft and can and does offer excellent counsel. I apologize for picking on you with this one example Michael and am even willing to yield that there are far more examples where you have done far more good than harm. I use the unfortunate example only to make the point. The first message on page one of this thread is the starting example and the reason for my earlier dissertation. If I may, we have heard from many here offering arguments from both sides of the fence. Perhaps the discussion could now take a more productive and interesting turn if we practice by example the points of both sides. Take as example a relatively inexpensive violin, from ebay or any other source, post a few pictures, and let's see a bit of discussion regarding the technical merits, shortfalls, or other areas readers may find interesting. Let the pro's tear one apart (verbally) offering discussion on fingerboard angles, C-bout construction, maple versus spruce backs, finish impact on sound, etc, etc, etc. When a person asks about an ebay violin, I really doubt if they are truly asking if a $300.00 offering is a "real strad"... most certainly know better. I believe what they are really asking is, "what is this?, Is it worth the current bid price?, why not or why, and a miriad of other questions. Even those who have already purchased an instrument, regardless of source, may often wonder how their instrument "stacks up". Grist for the mill? Certainly not the mill of the preceding three pages; but perhaps the kind of grist students, hobbyists, and professionals will find pleasure in sharing. To those who supported my thoughts here, thank you. To those who did not, my best possible regards. To the moderators who may take exception, forgive me my sins of artistic inexperience but grant me a small right to consciencous objection in the spirit of good will and the public nature of such forums. It is in this vain that I extend my thanks to all who help and those seeking help as one without the other yields little of interest to any.

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quote:

Originally posted by Michael Darnton:

Shadowhawk, it seems all the flames and arrogance are coming from your side of the wire here. Certainly you must realize that when you take it in your hands to ream out the whole stringed instrument world all at once that you're completely lacking focus, and just ranting. I'm always mystified by people who reverse the normal paradigm and argue that what's needed are lower standards for things. I've made this argument before, so I won't get too deeply here, but in every single category of item on this earth there's a line below which you're spending your money on garbage. On violins the line is pretty high (and is drawn not only on a basis of origin, but more importantly on condition--playability), but it's there, and a disproportionate number of this type show up on ebay. I'm sorry the line's high, and I sympathize with beginners, but why don't you go ask some teachers about how well students do on bad violins that don't work and sound like tin cans, and then think about whether you'd be doing any child a favor to put trash in his hands to try to learn on, instead of picking on me for trying to make every violin that comes through my hands good enough for anyone to take joy in playing---but also knowing when the job is hopeless or financially stupid.

Uh, uh...I don't think so Mike. Let me tell you a story. Just go to the continent and see what other luthiers/makers think of the American instruments and makers. There was this gentleman I knew who bought a high priced American violin (over $10,000). Finding that it needed a little attention he carried it to a violin shop with a high international reputation in London. He was naturally disappointed when he was told that although it was a fairly good instrument it would never command the price he had paid for it. Not one to give in to the first "reputable" opinion that came along he also had the instrument appraised by two other shops, another in England and one in Germany. All appraisals were not only approximately the same but the opinion of the reputable firms elsewhere is not too flattering of the American makers or violins. It would seem that American and German junkers are pretty much the same. What bothers me is that if I put my garbage in a silk bag it still remains garbage. Similarly with arguments dressed in suitable rhetoric aimed at convincing the masses otherwise. One must look at the substance rather than the form of the argument.

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Shadowhawk...I attempted to say the same thing as you did hoping that good breeding and intelligence would prevail...alas it was not meant to be. From an examination of my post and at the sake of repetition and agreeing with you 100% I think we ought to use the forum as a means of education rather than denigration. There are many persons who are less informed than others here and who would like the benefit of informed opinion rather than the sarcasm and attacks ad nauseum. To my mind there is no such thing as a stupid question because at the end of the day knowledge is gained. For the unfortunate few who have to run the gauntlet of acidic remarks and useless attacks in the quest for knowledge they can at least rest assured that the empty vessels make the most noise.

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Sorry Ray ... to disclose specifics in this case would be unethical and would breach the confidence of the maker of the statements. In any event those facts are not too relevant since the situation was meant to be more illustrative than specific. Three independent opinions (maybe subjective?) with the same conclusion. The point was thrown out and countered by Jeff et al. Just a thought based on a real life situation, that's all.

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nemesis,

I think we're talking apples and oranges here.... and one specific instance of an American violin being appraised in Europe at a lower rate than the maker charges does not make a convincing case for me. On the other hand, there are contemporary intruments I avoid appraising, as I feel the price charged by the maker will not hold up to the test of time and the work does not rise to an appropriate level (I feel they are enjoying 15 minutes of fame)..... but I know I could be proved wrong. These are not just instruments of US origin, and I would not tell the owner "it's not worth it" unless I felt that there was something terribly wrong with the fiddle. I would send them to the maker for an appraisal, however..

The record price paid at auction for a contemporary violin was set in London; and the violin was American. It went at well over 3 times the 10K you mentioned. American makers have placed #1 in Cremona (the triennale), Mittenwald, and other international competitions in Europe. Several players in the Berlin Symphony own American instruments by makers charging over twice the amount you mentioned.

Granted, the markets are different (especially for new making) in Europe and the US, but when one reaches the top level of contemporary making (and establish an international reputation), the prices are pretty standard no matter where the instrument originates; Italy, Germany, England, the US, etc.

......and I haven't seen one of these on ebay yet. wink.gif

Jeffrey

[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Holmes (edited 03-17-2001).]

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Thanks for the support Nemesis. I don't believe concensus is necessary for everyone to move on to more productive discussion. Even without concensus, a few words of encouragement, even couched in dissention, can often incite postive change. I've invested nearly 40 years of my life in the world of music and stringed instruments. I never achieved a level of skill that would allow me to earn more than the meagerest of livings but have the found the personal satisfaction of playing and teaching others to be very rewarding. I'm an engineer in the computer industry so understand well the inquiries, trepidations and fears of those new or inexperienced in that world and always have tried to maintain a position of patience and shared interest regardless of the persons knowledge level. I try to remember that in everything I do, whether it be music, the sciences, or just trying to understand my own teenage daughter (God help me!), I am and always will be no more than a poor student. It is my hope that forever I will remain so, learning a bit more from others with each new day.

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Nemesis--Without discussing specific names, there's not much to talk about. Dissing the competition is the rule rather than the exception in many shops, here and there, both. I don't know the violin used as an example, and I don't know the shops it went to and who met your friend in those shops, who may or may not be qualified to speak on the topic with any authority. When it comes to discussing contemporaries, the evaluations are often far from fair or logical. I'm immediately reminded of a letter printed in the STRAD a couple of years ago from a person that some people might consider a sort of authority saying that Peresson violins were expensive at $3000. A completely ridiculous (brazenly stupid, if you will) statement, with a relatively well-known name attached to it, in an international magazine. I don't expect much wiser judgement from the average shop on the street, be it in America or in London. There's a tendency among customers to think that any violin business with a listing in the yellow pages is qualified to do anything to a violin, which is far from the truth, and to assume that the first person one meets in a shop is the authority who speaks for that shop, which is rarely the case.

It's a bit of a side issue that I'll pass on to you. When I started working at Bein & Fushi I made much the same kind of statements that you made above, but I soon learned that Mr. Bein wasn't interested in situations that weren't attached to specific names, dates, and items. Before he would respond to any subjective issue, he wanted to know people involved, and judge their qualifications to speak on the issue, before anything else. He's fond of saying that ten bad opinions from ten people who don't know anything about the subject don't establish the truth about something, even if they all agree, and I think it's good advice.

[This message has been edited by Michael Darnton (edited 03-17-2001).]

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quote:

Originally posted by nemesis:

. . .. As an attorney I daily face arguments which have to be analysed to sift form from substance, fact from fiction, etc. . . .

Interesting information, which then causes me to be surprised that you would not realize the problems inherent in anonymous, second-person evidence, and not want to, yourself, avoid presenting it.

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Ebay is nothing more than the old pig-in -the -poke gone high tech. As several have mentioned, if you set your bid price low and don't expect a lot, you probably won't be disappointed. I bought a violin from Ebay for $86, which is a German factory built copy of a Strativarius. This instrument is built very well, has high quality wood and sounds great. I would not part with it for less than $800, and from what I've seen in music stores, others who had this violin would price it in the range of $800- $1000. Not everyone has money to spend on an expensive hand-built violin and have to take their chances on buying something inexpensive in hopes that they will be lucky enough or smart enough to find a good instrument for a low price. I would rather have seen the violin before I purchased it, but at least Ebay gives a great way for people to market items world-wide that previously could not be put before people who are interested and has brought a lot of instruments out of storage, where regardless of their quality, they were of no value. From what I see in music stores I am able to visit, the great violins are priced at a lot more money than I have to spend, and the low priced ones have been picked over so that they really are the junkers. I say more power to Ebay for opening up the market they have. Just remember the old saying about buying a pig in the poke, but at the same time, how many of you can afford a Rolls Royce, and if not, what are your options?

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I see that one of the locals is bidding relatively big money on a violin purported to be from one of the most faked modern Italians, bearing an insignificant certificate and no guarantee of authenticity, which has met reserve at 1/30 of the normal retail price. I hope he'll file a report on the results of this venture if he "wins".

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