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Glues: An introduction.
Rue posted a topic in The Pegbox"Wood" (pun intended ) it be handy to have brief "glue facts" all in one place? After almost 20 years of reading opinions about glue use with regards to violin making, it seems that confusion and misinformation hasn't really abated. ***This is very rough info. I'll edit/reorganize as I have time.*** Feel free to post info, experiences and opinions! For more detailed information on any of the following please consult Wikipedia. 1. Wood glue: catch-all term used for a myriad of glues used to hold wood together. Pros: Glues wood. Cons: Catch-all term. Can be confusing as to chemical make-up. 2. Hide glue: Made from animal collagen found in animal hides. Comes in different strengths; examples: 251 g (8.9 oz) is normally used for instrument building, 192 g (6.8 oz) is most commonly used for woodworking and the lower strength 135 g (4.8 oz) can also be used for general woodworking. Pros: Non-toxic if ingested (similar to gelatin). Does not creep. Can be "unglued" relatively easily. Cystals, if kept dry, have an indefinite shelf life. Cons: Crystals need to be mixed with water and heated - requires constant supervision. May smell bad. There are also different formulations available and not all are equal. Example: Liquid hide glue contains urea. 3. White glue or polyvinyl acetate (PVA)[hobby/craft glue]: Originally made from milk proteins AKA casein. Example: Elmer's Glue All. Also safe (if clean) and was used in classrooms. If yellow: called Carpenter's glue. Pros: Easy to use. Non-acidic. Used in bookbinding and as a wallpaper adhesive. Cons: Subject to degradation by various microorganisms. Will creep. Does not stick well to itself (when regluing). 4. Fish glue: A hide glue made from fish collagen, keratin or elastin. Different types of glue are formulated from different fish species/fish parts. Mostly used in various art endeavours. Pros: Safe. Cons: Weaker than regular hide glue. 5. Rice glue: A plant glue made from rice. Pros: Safe. Transparent when dry. Non-acidic. Reversible. Cons: A weak glue. 5. Muscilage: Made from plants. Edible. Historically used on envelopes, the back of stamps and for classroom use. Largely discontinued in favour of newer formulations. Pros: Safe and edible. Cons: Weak adhesive prone to drying out. Best for temporary use. 6. Cyanoacrylate (CA): A synthetic, or "plastic" product. Different formulations exist, such as thin and watery, a thicker gel or foam. Pros: Very strong. Easy to use. Cons: Not reversible. Can glue living skin. 7. Epoxy: A group of basic components, or cured end products, of epoxy resins. Epoxy resins (AKA polyepoxides) are a class of reactive prepolymers and polymers which contain epoxide groups. Pros: Very strong, comparatively chemically inert when cured, won't melt or dissolve in heat and humidity. Cons: Toxic when uncured, two-element, requires preparation, irreversible. 8. Polyurethane glue: Similar to cyanoacrylate. Multipurpose. Waterproof. Will bond different materials together such as metal to wood. Pros: While uncommon in violin making, may be used when installing certain geared pegs. Cons: May bond poorly. Short shelf life (~1 year). Toxic: contains carcinogens.
Hi there, as a professional violin maker I sometimes feel uncomfortable when an industrial instrument comes to the bench and needs reglueing. I'm talking about industrial glue that dries into "plastic-ish" layer. I usually cut chips of this old glue to test for hot water dissolution, but most often I get no happy surprise : plastic-ish, indeed! So after having mechanically removed the glue I glue it back, usually with aliphatic glue (not to mention a very famous brand name :-)) I wouldn't dare to use my good old hide glue, as I tend to consider that the wood has been sealed with the old industrial glue, preventing the hide glue to "bind" to the wood, and there is also the problem of poor contact induced by roughly fitted surfaces. This time I have this problem again, the old glue is transparent, has no colour and is brittle, and what is needed is to glue the neck back into the body, and I'm a bit scared because of the high constraint... ... would someone share with me some knowledge, some experience in this general matter? It could be easy to refuse to do such "indus" work, but I like the idea of helping everybody, discrimination based on glue type is not an option! Thank you very much. Arnaud
Glue for Violin nut
Mike D posted a topic in The PegboxHello I haven't invested in a hide glue setup yet. But I have some violins to setup so I was wondering what most people use for glueing the nut on? I bought a setup DVD but it didnt say what he used. Although it looked like dab of Elmers. Thanks Mike
Need advice for cello neck replacement
furryantelope posted a topic in The PegboxHello! I am looking for some expert advice on a repair venture I am beginning on a friend's cello. I am an experienced electric guitar builder but cello is a bit outside of my pond. I have a neck that is cleanly broken off from the pocket with only some minor chipping within. I have three questions: - Do I need proper hide glue or would some Titebond III do the trick? Any alternatives? - Would it be preferable to fill the chip-outs with a glue/sawdust mixture or do I need to look at replacing the block? - Should I remove all glue before a second glue-up? Any other advice or tips would be greatly appreciated.
How to close this kind of cracks
jandepora posted a topic in The Pegbox
Chipped C-Bout Corner
Greenviolin posted a topic in The PegboxHello, I am wondering how/if to repair a corner of my c-bout that chipped off of my violin while practicing. It is a clean break, but I want to put it back as quickly as possible. I’m giving a recital on this violin in a week and don’t think I’ll be able to make it to the shop to get it fixed before I leave the state to perform and wondered if a simple repair with wood glue would be absolutely horrific or detrimental to my instrument and it’s value. It is very nice instrument and new to me, and I do not want to be doing something entirely foolish. I really don’t want to cause any further damage to my instrument, and was finding mixed reviews to the solution online. Please get back to me at your earliest convenience — I’m kind of panicking a bit... The corner looks seamless when it is simply pressed back into place (without any adhesive) so I’m hoping that I might be able to make a simple repair on my own as it is not a part of the violin that needs to be reopened for any purposes.
Clean crack to reglue?
Tostra posted a topic in The PegboxHi people :-) I'm repairing a fairly old violin that I found in a local antique store. It's not very special, but it seems well built and I expect it to have a nice tone. Besides, I'm still learning. I've repaired a couple of violins before, but I don't want to work on anything too good yet. The top had two cracks. I glued the first one and it went quite well. The other one, however was more difficult. The wood had moved over time, so the crack was wide open and required quite bit of clamping to stay together in the right position. I set it to cure overnight, but one of the clamps must have gotten loose, because the crack is now open in the middle and perfectly closed in the sides. My question is: how do I remove the now hard hide glue in the crack that's preventing it from closing rather than holding it together? Will it be sufficient to heat up the area with a heat gun and reclamp it? would that daamage the wwood or the finish? I've tried scraping carefully with a knife, but it's not very effective, and I can't reach the "corners" where the crack goes from open to closed. I was also considering a damp brush, but I don't know if softening/removing the glue would take so much water I'd ruin the wood... Is there any good way to do this? And yes, I will be more careful next time with my clamping :-/
Ray Chen's shoulder rest
HJW posted a topic in The PegboxAt 16:10 of this video (it's great), Ray Chen showed that his bar-shaped shoulder rest was attached to his 1715 Strad using some kind of glue. Judging from the magnet-like action of the attachment, I thought the glue must be very strong (i.e., unlike the suction-cup type of "glue" used by AcoustaGrip). Ray said that it is a special type of glue that does not harm the varnish. Does anyone know what kind of glue is that? Henry
If you can't use hide glue - what glue is second-best?
Rue posted a topic in The PegboxThe neck ring (?) is loose on one of the cheap boxwood pegs on the inexpensive 'experimental' viola I recently purchased. The pegs fit well...so I'm happy with them, but want to glue this bit in place - before it creates some 'mystery' rattle or buzz that I'll be fretting about, lol. Regular white glue? Or would you even bother with hide glue on a peg in the first place?
"Economy" Chinese Instruments Finish and Glue
Bob Sp posted a topic in The PegboxI am faced with repairing less expensive Chinese instruments (okay - maybe cheap is the right word). I am suspicious I am dealing with something other than hide glue and real varnish. Does anybody know for sure? I have gone through a couple of dozen threads in the Pegbox to see if there has been any mention of what kind of glue and finish are being used on Chinese instruments currently being produced. I haven't found any mention of this. I am reluctant to experiment on somebody else's violin, so I am asking here if anybody knows. I am suspicious that the finish may be some kind of commercial spray lacquer - at least on some (some are very brittle). I am seeing mostly Gewa and Menzel brands around here. Cheers, Bob
Any thoughts on using Old Brown Glue (Liquid Hide Glue)
Absilon posted a topic in The PegboxHi, Just joined this awesome forum the other day and this is my first post. Any thoughts on using Old Brown Glue (Liquid Hide Glue) vs. traditional hot hide glue. My research shows that it is basically hide glue with urea added to it. I have also read that it is much better then Tighbond liqiuid hide glue. I'm wondering what some of the more experianced members here think about this glue. Thanks in advance for your advice and opinions. Best regards.
Criteria for choosing different kinds of glue
Jose Catoira posted a topic in The PegboxI am feeling a little guilty after glueing up some centre joints with TItebond. Like other people, I have well drilled into my brain that protein glue is the only way to go because of its reversibility, however, I really cannot find a criteria that stops me from using it on centre joints, and as a matter of fact, a lot of other processes in new making. Restoration is another game and I won't go there. This is purely for new making. I was wondering what other people's criteria is for choosing a type of glue or the other, perhaps Titebond is more widely used that I had thought... Working in a shop, one of the guys had the "pleasure" of having to unglue a rib off of the corner block in a Gagliano violin. That thing was definitely NOT glued with hide glue. It took him most of the day to ease that thing. Animal glue would have come apart way easier. Perhaps the old dudes had a different idea of how permanently things should be glued on?