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Showing results for 'maidstone'.
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I recently bought a Maidstone violin at an auction just to see if I might get lucky. I haven’t set it up yet, but when I was looking inside with my £8 ebay endoscope I noticed an S stamped on the top block. Looks like it also has 4 corner blocks. Just wondering if anyone has any information about that??? Thanks
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I trust you did not think my 'JTL' picture was on a Maidstone - it was merely a response to billschetler's question. However, I have also seen a 'Maidstone School Orchestra' (black) labelled violin with what appeared to be a softwood back that shared some similarities with the OP. Other than it not having a bassbar, I didn't note the constructional details at the time so not sure of its place of origin. I would guess inter-war period, age wise.
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As far as I understand, most earlier Maidstones were sourced from 'The usual' region (Markneukirchen/Shonbach) but I have also seen later Maidstone labels on violins that appeared to be French (Mirecourt). NOT on a Maidstone but I have had a JTL ........
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Hello all - not to re-ignite the debate re Maidstone violins (I know Martin's opinion) but I find some to be very good and especially in the small sizes Just a question , here are two 3/4 violins both labelled 'Maidstone'. The one on the right is actually a well made 'Markie'- even to the blackened pegbox The one on the left is slimmer, slighter with almost a 'Medio fino' appearance - yet also labelled 'Maidstone' Did Murdoch import from JTL at all does anyone know?
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Yes, absolutely. Do you think the term "factory" was applied to mostly what was a cottage industry in order to add a veneer of respectability to what was in reality exploitative piece work? I find it interesting, sociologically and historically, that these cheap violins have also been associated with egalitarian sentiments of "music for the masses" and the democratisation (the 5 frank violin) of musicianship. Because there seems to have been a sadly ironic degree of exploitation of those making these violins in that atmosphere all of supposed good intention by those ordering and selling them. In the UK (and lesser extent USA), the Maidstone Movement (The Schools Orchestral Association) run by Murdoch and Co. imported hundreds of thousands of Saxony violins into the UK (see https://www.violinonline.com/classesforthemasses.html) I have repaired 5-6 of them and have found the earlier ones (Murdoch and Co) are seemingly built better than the later ones (Murdoch and Murdoch and Co). My youngest daughter had a 19th Century (labelled: "The Maidstone. John G Murdoch an Co London. E.C".) 3/4 Maidstone and really liked it, before ditching it for an unlabelled 7/8th factory violin on which I repaired a table crack, and she and her music teacher are most impressed with. I am currently pondering whether or not to replace the fingerboard on a 4/4 later Maidstone model (Labelled" "The Maidsone. Murdoch Murdoch and Co. London. E.C" because latterly John Murdoch's son became a partner in the company) which has a number of woodworm flight holes that have been filled by what looks like black-wood dust mixed with glue. I am swaying towards just leaving the original fingerboard on it. Moreover, the table of the violin also shows what looks very much to me like evidence of extensive woodworm activity following the grain under the varnish. Is it? Or is it just degradation of the varnish? This model came from Tonbridge (cost me just £27 on eBay) - which is just a few miles from Maidstone where the original Maidstone Movement began. This violin was covered in thick dusty grime and strung with gut strings and in the original coffin-style case. It looked like it had not been played for many decades. This one has a carved in bass bar and no blocking of any kind in the corners. I have another earlier model with blocking and a fitted bass bar that I fixed up, which looks OK all over and sounds rather nice. Attached pic of the worm damaged later Maidstone model - which is of early 20th origin. I guess many people would just bin such a ravaged piece of beaver tooth carved junk. But I'm enjoying getting them up into playable order again. To me, and my daughter's violin music teacher, they are certainly far superior in sound to Stentor violins, which so many children in the UK are saddled with. Therefore, it seems a shameful waste to me not to get these most basic old violins back into the hands of young beginners, especially since they were the product of the exploitation of so many in Saxony.
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I've never seen that detail about the different quality of Maidstone violins before. Many thanks. Much appreciated and very useful. Yes I agree entirely. I now have 3 4/4 Maidstone's and 5 3/4 Maidstone's. I bought all of them to teach myself how to repair and set up violins. I have 2 of these John G. Murdoch and Co (earlier) violins in 4/4 and 2 as 3/4. I have a Murdoch and Murdoch (later model with a fitted bass bar that is very nice) that was played at orchestral level and the owner achieved Grade 8 on it . All the models I have have oval labels. I've never seen a square Maidstone label. True to what you write, the worst one is a Maidstone schools orchestra violin (as per the label). It has a cherry reddish varnish and is rather dreadful compared to the rest but OK now I set it up with a new sound post, bridge and set of Dominant strings. Good now for a beginner. Certainly better than a Stentor. It has a bass bar (carved in). I set up the degraded varnish Maidstone model today -new bridge and sound post and set of D'Addario A310 4/4M Medium Tension Ascenté Violin Strings - which I really prefer to Tonica's of late. And it plays very well with a lovely very extended ringing tone on the strings. Maybe all those decades of extreme temperature loft torture did something of tonal value to the poor old thing if not its varnish? Pic of it below,
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These constantly appear on EBay UK; does anyone have any general and/or interesting observations about them? Are there different identifiable grades, or periods of manufacture, or different manufacturers?
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Absolutely - not necessary - just use a proprietory violin 'cleaner' or reviver, maybe with a gentle use of 0000 wire wool followed by a good polish. Sometimes it takes several applications spread over a few days. You are probably already aware but yours is a very typical (later) middle range Murdoch & Murdoch Maidstone. I found these snippets on the internet when I was researching Maidstones a few years ago: "I have been told by a source which I cannot reveal, but whom I have no reason to doubt, that the Pilař family of Hradec Králové, Bohemia (now Czech Republic) supplied a great number of instruments to a company in the south of England around the turn of the century. I can think of no better candidate for this English company than Murdoch and Murdoch. It is, of course, possible that their records do not go back so far (especially in light of the Russian occupation of Czechoslovakia, 1948-1989) but one never knows. " There is also a range of quality in Maidstone violins; As you rightly point out and some of the earlier examples with a rectangular John G Murdoch label can be quite nice (purely relative to the usual 'rubbish' if I am getting the terminology). whilst the Maidstone 'School Orchestra' versions can be pretty awful - I've seen at least one with no bass bar. The following may shed some light: "I think the comment that Murdoch/Maidstone violins were only student models needs some expansion: in about 1900 Murdoch advertised violins at prices between 5/- and £10/-/- (though I have seen advertisements offering them at 25% off – between 3/9d and seven guineas - described as ‘Models for Beginners, Artistes & Connoisseurs’ in Full, ¾ or ½ size, while about ten years later the Maidstone Violins ‘As used by one hundred thousand pupils in over two thousand schools’ could be bought as a set (with bow, fittings and case) for 21/-, with special terms offered to schools. A simple conversion of these prices in line with inflation since before World War 1 (nearly 83 times between 1900 and now) produces prices as follows: 5/- (3/9d) converts to £20.75 (£15.56), £10/0/0 (£7/7/0) to £830.00 (£610.00) and the 21/- (undiscounted) set to £83.00. These figures give values at their basic inflation change, but do not genuinely reflect the true increase. How could anyone produce and sell a violin for about £15.50 in today’s money or a complete set for £83.00? One would, I assume, have to pay over £100.00 even for a new beginner’s violin today, made in the Far East, [The Chinese can churn out stuff for less but these days much is machine produced] and by the same mark-up the best Murdoch fiddles (mostly it seems coming from Bohemia - people have given me the names of probable makers, but I have not yet been able to check up on them) would probably be costing £4,000- £5,000 in today’s money. I have not come across any indication in today’s auctions, eBay or more local, or elsewhere of any awareness of the tremendous difference in quality that can be found with instruments containing the Murdoch label, but in view of these figures there must be a number of unnoticed bargains around." I need to check where I got that from!
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I have a violin with a 'Maidstone' label which is not typical of the type. I think it was probably made in the late 1930s and would have been a lower end factory instrument. (The Maidstone movement ended in 1941). It has symetrical corner blocks 'proper' glued in bass bar and other features such as the flat scroll eyes and circular button that lead me to think that it is possibly French? I wonder whether relations with Germany at the time may have led to the company to switch to other sources? I'm basically looking for any other opinions.
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Yes, I accept that. I could do that work to a reasonable degree of acceptability. 'Though as a "duffer" it would take me approx. 50 times as long as someone who has done it all many times before. But even were I to set about doing all that, I have a serious question that I would really appreciate a serious answer to. Namely, would it really make any worthwhile discernible difference to how this violin would play? The carved out bass bar inside looks reasonably shaped and substantial - not as bad as some I've seen, although nothing like as neat and elegant, and perfect, as it could best be. As for adding a fake label. Even if I would do such a thing, which I never have and have at least no conscious inclination to do, It has what is surely a genuine Maidstone label in it anyway. I mean, who would fake a Maidstone label? They wouldn't would they?
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I've almost finished work on a very severely damaged Maidstone 4/4 violin. Several cracks to the belly including soundpost. Someone has attempted to repair by splashing glue liberally, everywhere. Multiple chips and areas of loss to the varnish. I took it apart, fitted sp patch and other cleats, tidied up the varnish as much as I could. (It still looks awful but I draw the line at revarnishing.) The violin cost me almost nothing. I'll be selling it for almost nothing plus the cost of the strings. Do I regret time spent? Yes!
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I see "UK Ebay", but I can also set to show international auction items. In recent months the US offerings seem to be getting more and more "hopeful". Are you all seeing the same? My theory is that with so much less travel in the last couple of years, you are not seeing so many European imports and the same junk is just cycling around the Ebay ecosystem. In the UK, we have a different problem (though one that you also see in the US). During covid-times, and with the extended UK lockdowns, everybody decided they were a luthier! So we saw perfectly good instruments butchered using strong solvents, coarse grained sandpapers and polyurethane varnishes! When you see the adverts, it makes you want to scream "STOP IT!", then you laugh at their amateurish efforts, and then it just makes you very very sad. I am on the look out for a nice Maidstone (Murdoch and Murdoch) and I see way too many of these violins "renovated" beyond repair. I cut my Mother's and Father's hair during lockdown, but I am not a hairdresser. Just stop it, all of you! -
Someone in this thread said that some were JTL, I have no idea if he is correct. https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/325632-maidstone-violins/ Plenty of other threads where that came from.......................... https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=maidstone&quick=1
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Looks something like a Maidstone, which were the cheapest of school violins for British children.
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Here, it seems, we are spoilt for choice. Most cities have several string shops to choose from, although some are best avoided if you have anything much better than a Maidstone. Because of the larger numbers of establishments, you really have to be in the midst of it, so a central location is vital. If you can be somewhere with good transport links, it might still work out, but it seems people don't want to travel too far here, for repair work. I think it can be different for retail, if you can make your place worthy of a day out.
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I thought blueish-purple sounded a bit gaudy, even for a Maidstone! For 20 years I played in the Maidstone SO. Wondered if it might make good publicity for the whole violin section to play on eponymous instruments, but then again...
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I know, before you tell me, this is an old topic. However I have a little to add. Most of the Maidstones I've seen over the years (and I buy and sell at this end of the market) have the same features and were probably made in the same factory in Bohemia. (Dark chestnut varnish colour, broadly flamed maple, inelegant scrolls, inlaid purfling, etc.) Murdoch must have bought them by the thousand. They rarely have cracks and play well enough. Worth setting up. However I'm fairly sure that some Maidstones came from Germany., and I've seen two which were definitely French, by the JTL worshops. I've just acquired a violin with a Maidstone label which is a blue/purple colour, rather than the usual brown. But the same shape and design of label. I took the belly off in order to reattach the neck and found that it was beautifully made inside. Fully blocked, linings neatly tucked in, smooth back and belly, nicely shaped bass bar. The timber used for the back is also unusual with a prominent vertical wide grain. It actually looks like spruce or pine but is definitely a hardwood. Anyone seen a Maidstone like this? I'm looking forward to seeing how it plays.
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If you intend selling it, don't mention the Maidstone label!
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Bienfait violin - Is it Saxony (German) or even French?
DuffersEdge replied to DuffersEdge's topic in The Auction Scroll
You know, this is an interesting point. I sometimes watch a TV program about rescuing old cars and restoring them - most of the cars are basic models like old 1960's Ford Escorts, fiats etc. None are thoroughbred high end classics. As the cars for restoration are put up on the ramps the show usually reveals the Master Mechanic pulling at the sills and floor to uncover duffer repairs made using wire mesh and epoxy body filler all concealed with bitumen underseal. Now the analogy is far from perfect because such repairs do seriously compromise passenger safety in a crash. But my point is this: the mechanic never criticises the bodge-job that was done. Why not? Because they say the bodger did it to keep the car out of the scrap yard and on the road. It was done to get it through the MOT process. And so the car survives to get into their expert hands when most - not so cleverly bodged - were crushed. Now, analogously, you write about the violins repaired by hobbyists etc that you have had to - or chose to - repair. I suspect some such bodgers used white glue etc (I use hide glue only). Now from this heuristic point in the analogy, I am sure you can join the dots of reasoning. That leads to the "telling question" sting in this tale. Namely, do you work for some kind of "National and International Violin Rescue Service" charity or voluntary unpaid service of your own devising where you are repairing the violins of the world from taxpayers money of charitable donations? Or are you charging for your expert Luthier services? Your irritability is strange if you are making money out of fixing basic "factory" violins bodged by others. Less so if you are upset that more high end instruments have been unnecessarily damaged when they would have got into your hands anyway and not been scrapped even had the bodged repairs not been done. But how would you know they all would not have been scrapped had the bodge not been done? For my own part, I have never sold a violin, but I have repaired quite a few factory violins now. My aim in doing so is to give my 11 year old daughter a choice of models she would like to play (so far she has nabbed the best 3/4 Maidstone, an unlabelled crack repaired Saxony "Beaver Tooth" carved with carved in bass bar violin and most recently a full sized Saxony violin on which I repaired the cracked A hole using a spiral bushing process explained brilliantly on this website. So far, after about a year under full tension the crack repair is as sound as the day the hide glue set. My aim for the remaining violins is to get them into the hands (free of any charge) of youngsters whose parents cannot afford to buy or rent a 1/2 decent violin. And every violin I have repaired so far has been checked out and approved by a professional violinist who has attended a music school on scholarship and graduated from a well known conservatoire. That person is a very discerning judge (they play very expensive high end violins). -
I've bought some 10 violins on ebay to fix. The Manby I bought for £60 is very good indeed. It had a split central seam on the back. I repaired it using a technique I saw on this forum. I also have several Maidstone's. My 11 year old daughter is thrilled with the two violins she has claimed as her own. Yesterday she nabbed one off me (4/4) (unlabelled) on which I fixed a cracked A-peg hole, using technique I learned off this forum. It was originally owned by a vicar on he Canary Islands (I tracked her down via her name on the violin case) and she was very happy the violin is now being enjoyed again. It has some interesting tiny woodworm tracks on the neck - confirmed as woodworm by a luthier - who had never seen tracks like it before.
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Found this just now on aBay - note Czech origin on the label and a date of 1930. Advert archived for reference information https://archive.is/rWZcL This is a Schools Orchestra Maidstone.
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I used a rag dipped in a little olive oil and then dipped into a bag of Tripoli powder to create a very, very gentle cutting compound to clean the loft-grime covered Maidstone. Then a little Hindersine violin wax polish to shine it up a bit.
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I do not know. Maidstone varnish isn’t something I’ve spent much thought on.
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I find this kind of puffery pretty depressing - there’s far too much of it in the violin trade. There is absolutely no common ground between a Maidstone and a violin by one of the Pilar family.
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Beaver tooth carving seems more common in the instruments exported to America. I don’t think you will find a Maidstone that roughly finished.
