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Showing results for 'amourette'.
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Martin, what did you sell the nickel.amourette Cuniot Vuillaume style bow you hadfor? I have one on it's way in next week (but in pern) and I'm trying to drill down on a price range. It's coming in with a Lotte to, I think. jeff
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Bows are an addiction, one I have no desire to quit. The newest - stamped Sartory. It's obivously not Sartory, the angle of the head seems too sharp - more Peccatte than Sartory, the frog is the wrong shape - ferrule sticks out too far, etc. But it is also a nice silver mounted bow with a lot of age. The color is a chocolately brown with some darkening in spots - the stick was obivously well used and has a lot of wear above the stamp. The wood near the stamp seems to have a lot of end grain then on adjacent sides the grain goes with the stick - visible in the photos. Any ideas? French? German? Kindling? Does a stamp always mean poor copy, or were nice bows ever stamped later in life by someone who didn't know any better? FYI, For those that don't like to respond when things may be for sale someday, I tend to fall in love with and keep my nicer bows, but no guarantees. (My nicest so far is an amourette L. Bausch Leipzig.) Thanks to everyone that answers - I've been lurking and just reading for a year and I've been learning a lot on here.
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Interestingly I had the chance to play a couple of Brazilian student bows on Friday, one ipé and the other pernambuco. Both the same price. The ipé bow was massively superior. However, neither was a great bow, though the ipé bow was serviceable. When it comes to serious violin bows for advanced musicians, I've had plenty of amourette, abeille and "bois éxotique" Peccatte family bows, Dominique, and Francois. They really don't compare with great pernambuco bows by the same makers, though these materials can sometimes be better for viola bows. Maybe there is some wonder wood yet to be discovered which can match the properties of the best pernambuco, but it is yet to be found, and it sure as hell ain't carbon fibre. -
unfortunately CITES export and import certificates are only valid for 6 months ... and in order to get them you have to have an expert certificate identifying the bow. I agree that customs officers don't have a hope in hell of differentiating between pernambuco and amourette, but a pearl eye versus a plain frog, easy peasy.
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Many thanks for your reply. There are no assembly marks on the slide, I've attached a better picture. It's just pinned twice. I've also checked under a 10x loupe and nothing, I'm really not convinced they started life together. The reason I asked if it could be French was due to me having a read on this forum. It seems to be the case that Snakewood/Amourette was used by both late 19th century MK makers and mid 19th century French makers, I could be completely wrong in my interpretation of the information. fiddlecollector had input on a Peccatte thread and posted the attached picture. The one I have has, to me, a very strong resemblance to one of those illustrated. You'll need to forgive my skills of just taking a picture of it next to the screen. The kick up at the end of the ivory doesn't look as pronounced on mine because the lining has come loose and it's drooping down. The wood seems to hold the same form though. There is a difference on the top of the head though, mine is slightly more rounded, I'm not sure through wear or design. I didn't want to start the thread with the name Peccatte, because I actually don't know what I'm doing. I have no desire to be the idiot that walks into the shop claiming they have a Strad. I just don't want to make a mistake by messing about on what might be a good quality French stick with associated frog. Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.
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Thank you very much!! I am very happy to know more about my bow. I had never tried bows of amourette wood before, I must say that, although inexpensive, it gives a nice round sound. I've read that many famous bowmakers such as Peccatte and Nicolas Rémy Maire have built several amourette bows, so with the near extinction of peranambuco, could it be a possibility even for contemporary bows? Is there an easy way to distinguish amourette wood from a flamed pernamubuco? Thank you again, best regards, Stephanie
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Could be Amourette. Here is another pic for what is worth.
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At first sight it looks like Amourette (snakewood with a slight figure). But not for 100% sure to tell by the photos.
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From own experience I found pernambuc to have a quicker attack as opposed to amourette being a bit lazy. The sound of amourette is warmer and rounder than pernambuc. A bit like playing an awesome Tubbs which plays like a rolls royce as opposed to a sartory Both amourette and pernambuc are generally of equal strength. Both species have weak and stiff sticks.
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Personally - not really. I think with the Peccatte school makers the differences in the approach to camber are dominant, and that wood density (whether pernambuco or amourette or abeille) is far more important than the species. But we did sell an amourette F. Peccatte to a very fine violinist a couple of months ago - he has now given us his pernambuco FX Tourte to sell because he so much prefers the amourette bow. He's not a unique case either ... Generally I've found it easier to sell non-pernambuco bows to viola players. But that may be because viola players have a wider take on what constitutes good sound than violinists.
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It's not the best way to photograph bows. From the bit what's possible to see, the snakewood/amourette bow looks like an older Markneukirchen "not bad" shop bow with a probably unoriginal adjuster. The third from left a similar from Mirecourt, both featuring a round "Vuillaume slide". If the 2nd is pernambuco it could be worth a restoration, but that's not to tell by the photo. The rest is "the usual". If you would take more detailed photos from the both I mentioned it could be possible to tell a bit more.
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Many of the viola bows ive seen by ``Peccatte`` have been by Francois or jointly showing the hand of D and F. Also most of these were of ironwood ,abeille or amourette and nickel mounted. They certainly arent all like this https://beinfushi.com/product/vnb9558/
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What might have been 100 years ago is completely irrelevant for the actual trade, wherein Braz(s)ilwood /Abeille/Beeswood is a clearly defined term. All the opinions you are referring to are to find in some outdated books or internet sources. For example pernambucco sapwood is just pernambucco (or low grade pernambuco etc) and nothing else. The definitions are less made by dealers, but by the public preferring actually Pernambucco. Leaving out cheap stuff like beech the lower grade bows are made from Abeille, and there's also a wide range in between. Some species are more easily to identify by bare eyes like Snakewood/Amourette, Swarzia or Bloodwood, other more difficult and therefore usually regarded just as "Tropical wood" in certificates, and valued more by some features like nice figures. Many of the bow making shops probably couldn't even tell what was the name of the woods they were using for their lower grade bows. That's what's the actual standard where maybe not all, but the vast majority of the involved persons are agreeing in. There's no use in trying to blurr it.
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That's just an odd example for "old style" anyway, because CW Knopf was the person who introduced the "modern" way to bend the camber into the Markneukirchen bow making. A lift is happening because even at most modern bows (modern means from mid 19th century onwards) the last third of the stick is worked with a slight camber and not completely straight from the log. One will find at almost all bows more grain lines running out of the stick at the upper side, less at the lower, so this feature alone can't tell you how a historical stick was worked (applies also to Dodd bows which were mentioned). As an illustration, this Amourette stick has grainlines better visible than at pernambuco:
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I think I know who to ask. He bought a lot of amourette for bow wood but they cut it wrongly, so he sold me some for peg wood. If he's looked over hat much amourette/snake he probably has a good idea whatsa-whatsa. In my pieces there is a small whitish sap wood then a mixture of brown and blond then the dark serpent part. I'm curious too.
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Ok so I want to understand: amourette and Snakewood are different sections of the same log? The Center wood is where the figure is and it has one playing characteristics, and the exterior is the amourette section, And it has different characteristics?
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Martin, i think the figure is far more randon and probably down to genetics of the wood . Ive always found amourette quite stiff. Ive had 19th century amourette bows of very thin section but still stiff. Its very variable. I should also say i dont know if the figured areas of snakewood are less stiff than areas without much figure.
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I really love a lot of old amourette bows mainly 19th century (which is snakewood but usually refers to in bowmaking as snakewood with little or no figure). Highly figured stuff is usually only used for so called baroque style bows . Ive found a good amourette bow can play just as well as a good pernambucco bow. Others may disagree but then they may have not tried a good 19th century French amourette bow . There is no reason why it cant make a good modern bow. But be careful as snakewood is pretty difficult to season ,so be careful where you buy it from. I bought a big heap of old seasoned stuff from a Uk auction house under the description of it being pernambuco ,it was highly figured but i sent it back as i was expecting pernambuco. If it had been only slightly figured (ie more streaky than highly spotted i would have kept it ,as unfigured snakewood is often discarded by big wood dealers in favour of the typical high figure /high price stuff) . Dealers like Espen in germany sell the low figured stuff .
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Referring to this set of photos: 1 and 2 from top to bottom could be pernambuco, 3 and 5 Abeille, 4 could be Amourette (snakewood). This looks like roughly scratched letters, maybe by an owner, not like any brand by a professionel maker, shop or dealer.
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Possible that it was shortened. OTOH I’ve seen so many of the short noses that it is also possible that they made it this way. One would need to look for more evidence that the nose was cut. From my screen I can’t tell much about the wood other than that it is strongly figured. But would Amourette not be a bit more heavy?
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Cant be sure from the photos but the stick looks like amourette.
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The stick has a peccate-ish head. i suspect the stamp was added later, most amourette bows werent stamped ,same with ironwood bows. Some idiots start windings by drilling a tiny hole and poking the start of the wire in to secure it ,may be the end of the wire that has snapped off in the hole.. The crack/split may or may not be a problem depending on which way the grain runs through the stick.. Bows have survived for decades with cracks like that near the handle end.
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Amourette is whats also known as snakewood, but with less figure than what you generally see. Baroque bow makers did use the figured type alot though and still do.
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This appears to be an interesting Markneukirchen bow from roughly the late 19th century, the head made after a Pajeot model in the manner of the Knopf school. The irregular carved chamfers are pointing to a relative quickly made Shop or trade bow, but nonetheless of a good quality. The wood looks like Amourette/snakewood, which is usually more heavy than pernambuco. Therefore it makes sense that your luthier replaces the metal winding with silk. The original winding was probably from the same material, otherwise it would make the bow rather heavy. Nobody as the player can tell if it works for them personally. Thee bows are usually regarded as „good value for small money“.
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You got on an extreme old thread, there was a lot of more stuff about amourette https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/search/&q=amourette and ironwood species posted in the meantime, especially many valuable comparing samples by fiddlecollector, for example here
