ANITIX87

Thanks, I have definitely discovered this to be true, unintentionally. I haven't found any new instrument I've really liked (I mean newer than, say, 2014) and a lot of the really old stuff I played was difficult to play if it hadn't been used much. I'm gravitating towards shops who have a large luthier team and who can tell me they verify play their instruments.

So you approach your violin-making primarily from an aesthetic point-of-view? I don't mean to over-simplify (I don't know the first thing about making violins), but you make it based on the woods you find, the grain pattern, the forms you have, etc, and then whatever sound you get out of it is what it is?

No, I don't think the use of unusual wood is a bad thing at all, as long as the sound quality isn't compromised. The grain pattern and varnish make for a really cool effect that I really like. Heck, if you could make a violin out of balsa that sounded the right way then why not? Is there a way to know how a violin/wood will sound before you use it? I think it's cool that people are experimenting with new techniques, materials, and processes. Since I'm in the market for a new violin, I've been exploring shops, luthiers, and makers of all kinds and I'm really impressed by some of the work I'm seeing from "unknown" people.

This instrument is gorgeous, I can't wait to see the finished product. Where are you located?

What about "maintenance" like re-touching, new soundpost, new bridge, re-planing, etc? Is that not a modification which is done on every instrument of a certain age? What about if someone loved your instrument but found the chinrest uncomfortable and decided to put a new one on it because it was the only thing stopping them from falling in love with it? Would that piss you off? Of course, breaking the contract has criminal consequences. I thought you were saying that the act of taking a trade-in for a consigned instrument is, in and of itself, a crime. Taking the trade is perfectly acceptable if the shop pays the consignee his or her due amount. I've used this tactic on all my car purchase but it wouldn't occur to me to try it with a violin. However, I'm sure there are people who would. I agree with the moral of the story (that my desire to change my instrument doesn't mean someone won't love my current one), but where do you draw the line with defacing it? What if the next owner really likes it but the action is too high so they decide to replace the bridge? What if they take replace the sound post in a few years because the one that's there now is the wrong size? What if they keep it for another 20 years and the fingerboard needs to be re-planed? None of those are any different than a re-graduation. While selling and/or upgrading might be what you view as the better option in terms of historical preservation, there's a huge sentimental value that comes with a violin: I may decide I like the history I have with the instrument and want a different sound, but don't want to sell what has become a piece of me. Where do you draw the line between maintenance and "altering the instrument"? I guess it comes down to a fundamental difference in view. I see the violin as an instrument/tool to be used and which can be appreciated for its craftsmanship. You (and many others) see it as a work of art which also has a use. In other words, I'd much rather have a hideous violin that sounds awesome, rather than a beautiful instrument whose sound I don't like. This is what's giving me pause in my dilemma. Many people I've spoken to say that a re-graduation has no guarantees until it's been completed and instrument is put back together. I'm basically look for "a viola tone in the violin register." Something with deep resonance and tons of undertones. Is this possible to achieve out of a violin which is currently bright, powerful, and direct? This is my issue with the debate. In addition to a line between "which violins are considered art" there's also the debate of what modifications are considered acceptable. There's a huge gap between replacing the strings on a violin and a re-graduation, including retouching, new bridge, re-planing, new pegs, etc.

Are violins historical objects? A Strad, Amati, Guarneri, Maggini, sure. But a copy of one of those, even made by hand, by a small modern luthier? There's thousands of those instruments and while each is unique, I don't know that they're "historical artifacts" the same way older ones are (but maybe I'm just cynical). I agree with your post. It's absolutely an investment and one I am comfortable making. My wife, on the other hand, has a "free instrument" (her voice) and already caved on an expensive car last year, so she's adamant about not buying a violin up front considering I'm a casual player. I can't say she's totally wrong, which is why I'm looking to sell first or trade. I will be patient, I have plenty of time and there are so many violins on the market that I'm bound to find the right fit no matter when I start looking. I believe his suggestion for re-graduation was in my best interest (keep a violin which has sentimental value but potentially improve the sound to get something closer to what I want) but I totally understand that there's no guarantee. I guess I'm used to modding cars (even expensive ones in good condition) and I see it more akin to that than to defacing a painting or sculpture. I agree with this view: if I were to sell it as an original Le Cointe without disclosing the re-graduation, it would be misleading and unethical. I don't think doing the work itself is unethical. As I said above, I parallel this more to modding an expensive car than defacing a Picasso, but maybe my view is skewed or cynical.

The ethics? Why would it be an ethical question? I get that it may not be a valuable or worthwhile thing to do as it can't guarantee results, but I'm curious what ethical issue you have with it.

You're right: budget isn't inherently a problem but the line I quoted above is what's stopping me. I'm a recreational violinist: I play in one community orchestra with weekly rehearsals (6 concerts/year) and very occasionally do chamber stuff. There's no way to guarantee that someone will eventually buy my violin, so tying money up in an up-front purchase (that I could otherwise invest) if I can't get rid of the current one isn't something that I can justify at my level and frequency of playing.

That's my plan. I'm not in a rush to sell or buy. I'm going to keep looking if I can't find a private buyer. My expectations for consignment or auction are VERY low, which is why I haven't pursued them as preferred options. Right, I am absolutely being transparent with all shops and telling them I'm hoping to do a trade, and being up-front with my budget. It don't want to waste their time or mine, or risk falling in love with an instrument only to have them tell me they won't even consider a trade-in. Right, the math makes total sense to me on why shops are hesitant to do trades unless they really want the violin and I'm certainly not asking for both trade value and a discount. I'm working with reputable shops so I trust their pricing. Only one place I've gone to raised a big red flag (they offered me the full insurance appraisal value for my instrument and were willing to sell me a violin at the same price (so I would have paid net $0) for a "1760 Maggini copy which should be worth around 45K but has extensive repairs so we're selling it for 15K." Although I absolutely loved the sound, my research and consultation with the online community seemed to suggest it was a 1900s German trade instrument which had suffered some major issues. Not sure how prison could possibly be involved. I understand shops won't take a trade on a consignment instrument because they'll lose too much money (so I don't even bother looking at consignment violins), but if they were to do it, it wouldn't be a crime as long as they paid the consignee his or her price. Yeah, I've explored that route a little bit. I took it to my luthier who replaced the soundpost and moved it, replaced the bridge with a thicker one, and suggested Obligato strings. Those things helped but it's still not quite what I'm looking for. He said the best thing to do would be to re-graduate the instrument to bring our more resonance but he wants $4,000 to do it, at which point I may as well upgrade since there's no guarantee the re-graduation will work. The one I wanted was $9,500. In and of itself, not a huge number, but not money I can just put down and be stuck with two instruments. I've considered the personal loan side of things, but it doesn't solve the problem of potentially being stuck with two violins. The issue isn't the money, it's having capital tied up in a second instrument that's sitting in a shop waiting to sell (and may risk being there for a long time). If someone comes to me and wants trade value, I won't take it (unless they happen to have a violin I really like). I realize that's a double-standard, but I'm not a shop looking for inventory, either. I'm not a working musician, purely recreational.

Yeah, it's insured. It's a shame I'd get more money to spend on an upgrade if something catastrophic happened than if I sold it to someone who wants it and would appreciate it. Yes, he is, but he no longer makes instruments. I've been in contact with him since I bought the instrument. I've asked about him buying it back but since he doesn't make anymore and doesn't have a waiting list of any kind, he didn't seem interested. Yeah, consignment is just tough financially. If I invest 12-15K on an upgrade and my violin sits in a shop for years, that money is tied up until it sells. The market is leaning towards darker instruments and my current one is a bright, penetrating soloist's instrument, so I'm at even more of a disadvantage. Yeah, I paid $8,000 in 1999 (which is about 12K today) so I'd hate to get less than 8K for it, and I don't think it would fetch that at auction. Tarisio said the instrument is too modern. I haven't contacted Skinner yet. The other big houses in London aren't practical for me since I'm in NY.

We all know the unparalleled feeling of finding "the" violin. Well, a couple of weeks ago, I did: I went to a shop and found a beautiful instrument that has exactly the sound I am looking for. Therefore, I want to upgrade. I'm looking to sell my current instrument to set up the right financial situation. My violin was made in 1998 by Raphael Le Cointe (who then went to Cremona). I have an insurance appraisal for $15,000 and his instruments have sold for upwards of $20,000. I'm hoping to get 10-12K to offset the cost of the upgrade. The violin is in suberb condition: it's more a solist's instrument (powerful, bright, direct, and responses). However, and I am playing much more orchestra and chamber stuff now, so it's not the right sound for me anymore (I'm looking for something warmer and less penetrating). I've read a bunch of old threads (from this site and others) on various tips for selling violins and the different options one has (consignment, auction, private sale, shop sale, trade-in, donation for tax break, etc). However, I think I'm stuck at the point where only a private sale is a realistic option, despite the difficulties that come with trying that. Consignment: I can't afford to buy the new violin and put my current one on consignment, because the up-front cost is too high (and I don't want to get trapped in a scenario where my current instrument doesn't sell for years). On the other hand, I can't put my violin into consignment and be left without an instrument to play while I wait for it to sell. Auction: I think an auction would yield far too little money. I've contacted the bigger auction houses (Tarisio, Bromptons, etc) and they don't seem interested in a modern NY instrument. Trade-in: The shop where I found the violin I love (a reputable shop in the USA) assessed my current instrument for a trade-in. The luthiers there confirmed it is well-made and in very good condition but they required the vice-president's approval. He, for whatever reason, declined the option to trade the instrument, even though I would have paid a significant net cash difference. The shop won't tell me why they weren't interested (they want to charge me for a "verbal appraisal"), even though I think this information would help me. Donation: quite simply, my income is too high since I file jointly with my wife, and the tax break I'd get for donating, even at the insurance appraisal value, isn't worth it. Shop sale: I can't imagine a shop or luthier will just buy my instrument from me to add to their inventory if I'm not buying a new instrument from them. PRIVATE SALE: This leaves me with private sale. I have reached out to old teachers, fellow musicians, a couple of youth orchestras in the area, and some other resources. However, this has proved futile so far as I am finding that potential buyers have an inherent trust in shops (it's understandable: it gives an impression of legitimacy in case something were to go wrong). I'm looking for tips, resources, or even contacts anyone might have on how to get word out about my instrument and find a student who is looking to upgrade. I believe my current violin is perfect for an advanced player, especially someone looking to move into a fine instrument and continue studying solo repertoire (something like a promising high school student or early conservatory student). I have also listed my violin on Reverb.com: https://reverb.com/item/31296574-fine-violin-american-hand-made-4-4-size-raphael-le-cointe-nyc-1998

I've come across a violin for sale by a Carlo Micelli (1922) on one of those random sale sites (LetGo, Marketplace, those kinds of places) which is missing a bridge, but otherwise look fine. Normally, a random online sale wouldn't interest me at all, but I recognized the name "Carlo Micelli" because I'm in the market for a new instrument and tried one of his instruments two weeks ago. The one I tried was priced around $8,000 and at the time, I thought that was reasonable because I really liked it and I found one at Shar for $8,500: https://www.sharmusic.com/Instruments/Violin/Professional-Violins/Carlo-Micelli-Master-Art-Violin-1924-Germany.axd However, more research has shown a huge discrepancy in these instruments: - Tarisio shows the "auction record" to be $385 (in 1992) - Information I've found says "Carlo Micelli" is the trade name for Charles Marseil, a German trade maker who made student instruments - Various online retailers have them in the $1000 to $1500 range. - This auction site (Skinner) shows several sold in the last few years, some for $250 and others for $3,000: https://m.skinnerinc.com/search?s=CARLO+MICELLI Can anybody suggest what I should request from the buyer to verify any kind of authenticity or to determine what the value would be if it were repaired? I have asked for a photo of the label, which the seller said is forthcoming, but haven't received anything yet. - This old Maestronet discussion seems to place them in the realm of the cheaper German trade instruments:

I didn't buy it: after a one-week trial period, I don't feel it sounds different enough to the violin I'm currently trying to sell to justify the price difference. I had loved it in the shop but, at home and my usual performance location, not as much. That's fair enough, I've seen Dydchenko used (notably in his court documents).

Good news: The name was spelled wrong and someone at Reed-Yeboah was able to help me find the maker: Dmytro Didchenko - a Ukranian maker who lived in NYC and eventually went on trial for shooting his wife at the Museum of Natural History in front of his daughter and 50 witnesses in 1965. Crazy. Unfortunately, I can't figure out to delete this topic.

I am looking for a new instrument and tried one I loved at a local shop: https://kolstein.com/product/dimitri-didtschenka/ The shop owner told me that it was from 1943 and is the last violin the maker made before allegedly killing his wife on the steps of city hall (I think in New York?). There is no label inside the instrument and I'm unable to find any information at all on the maker to justify the price they're asking. Anybody know anything about this maker? Any other instruments I can look up to see if the price is fair?