Giovanni Valentini

Thanks everyone. I am glad that I am not the only one who cannot spot the Gagliano in this! My thinking was that it could make a good baroquisizing project. Instead of ripping a perfectly good violin apart, the new neck is already priced in, there is no point in grafting that scroll, and the body seems in surprisingly good condition (apart from the damage to the varnish and the edge. But it would need to come seriously cheap for it to be worth it. I wonder what it is, though. Is there an 18th c. South German maker who incorporates elements of Venice and Klingental? ;-) That dendro surely is selective. It is probably all-purpose Alpine wood which, of course, has cross-matches with Italian makers (presumably along with some from Mittenwald, Markneukirchen, Paris, London and wherever else they sold it to).

https://www.bromptons.co/auction/18th-25th-july-2022/lots/57-an-italian-violin-school-of-gagliano-naples-second-half-of-the-eighteenth-century.html Can anyone see any similarity between this violin and any of the Gaglianos? I have been trying really hard, but no success so far. Why ever would Bromptons describe it as 'Gagliano School'?

Thanks for joining the Forum especially for sharing this!!!

My first encounter with a Strad was as a postgraduate when I went blind tasting instruments (as I still do). I was taking notes at Sothebys and distinctly remember one instrument that I particularly disliked and could not make respond or sound good for the life of me. It turned out to be the star of the show - a Strad. This was not one of the best, but for the 'mere' 2 million I would have hoped for something better! I also heard from an acquaintance, whose ensemble was given a Strad quartet to play on for a while, that this was a mixed blessing. Two of the instruments were fabulous, the other two were not (including the one he ended up with). In addition, they did not work well together. I think he was quite relieved when he borrowed one of my (by comparison very cheap) instruments after that. So apparently even the knowledge of playing a Strad does not always help!

Do you think it may also work in reverse: Buy that ex-Maggini now and in 30 time it will be a real one again :-) There may even be some wisdom to my silliness: Is it preferable to buy a great violin when it is expensive or when the selfsame instrument is cheap? The bright side of being down on the ground is that one can't fall.

And if I was a cynic, I might begin to wonder whether you are the vendor ... Luckily, we aren't! But if you were, what part of what I wrote might induce you to surmise such a thing? The info is taken straight out of the condition report. And, regrettably, my supernatural powers don't stretch to reading people's minds, what they may or may not think/dream/know about the violin. However, I do wonder what made Tarisio sell it as 'ascribed to', especially because this is not in their own financial interest to demote an instrument unless it is unavoidable. - But I suppose that was the initial question that sparked this discussion (and after nearly 50 contributions, I wonder if perhaps that was Tarisio's true intention?) ...

ca. 60k hammer would probably be the right price for a Landolfi of this quality with multiple soundpost and bass bar cracks, soundpost patch and later scroll. If bidders pay any heed to Tarisio's 'ascribed', I would imagine it to be more in the 30s, i.e., the classic speculative price range of being too cheap for the real thing and way too expensive for an anonymous one. Has anyone tried it and if so, is it any good?

Many thanks, everyone, for the advice!

Of course it is a lie, certainly regarding the cost, because the budget usually stretches to 20k! Which would be plenty if they would invest time and build up experience and self-confidence. Regrettably, it just feels so cool to flex your new Gagliano (including certificate) to your colleagues.

That's the beauty - you won't need experts and certificates: Musicians will fight over great instruments and ignore the others. Having said this, a high recommendation for a violin coming from Maxim Vengerov would probably impress me ... But day dreaming aside: In my blind tasting of instruments I am often surprised how little correlation there is between price and practical aspects such as sound quality and playability (yes, these are subjective, but not entirely!). And the involvement of top certificates doesn't seem to rectify that mismatch but can make it worse, precisely because they don't certify playing qualities.

If only I had a conclusive answer! But by now I usually trust a $200 dendrochronological analysis more than a x-thousand $ certificate, because the former is reasonably hard scientific data, the latter often someone's expensive educated guess, which may be wiped away a few years later - either by dendrochronology, by the expert's declining reputation, or by a simple 'I don't think so'. It always sends shivers down my spine when I see those instruments that have fallen from grace and makes me wonder how much my own investments are still worth (and for how much longer) where they rely on expert certification. E.g. you may remember a violin not long ago at Tarisio NY that had been a Strad, then a P. Guarneri of V. (all with top certificates) and eventually - after dendro - 'a violin'. How many people must have burnt fortunes over the years with that fiddle (and the cost of the certificates)! And this is by no means a unique case. Practically every major auction now has a couple of such instruments on special offer. But one can also see the positive side and prey on these misfortunes: More recently, I have been able to buy fantastic instruments in the range of $8k-15k which previously had at least a zero added to their price and, as presumed priceless fiddles, had always received the best care money could buy (and which nobody would have exerted on 'a violin'). I would be interested what the price of the ascr. Landolphi was in at BF in 2009 - I dare say not in the $15k-22k range. And that virtually invisible repair of multiple bass bar and sound post cracks surely did not come cheap either. Long story short, I guess my answer would be that certificates which are in constant danger of being worth less than the paper they are written on perhaps ought be given a somewhat lesser role in the pricing of an instrument, whereas its musical qualities should move up on the ladder. Or perhaps not, otherwise there won't be any good instruments left that musicians can afford!

Evidently. That's what I fear, too! Of course not necessarily, but it may explain why people are weary certificates by BF (and others, for that matter).

Sure, but they did, and therefore, in this case, I would tend to believe a dendro-induced 'Tbay proforma' more than BF certificate. Sorry, I thought that was obvious: Because BF are neither omniscient nor infallible, and their certificates can be annihilated by as little as an uncomfortable dendro result (q.e.d). As this is clearly the case with the 'Maggini', why could it not be with the Landolphi?

Perhaps because of the ca. 1700 'Maggini' with BF certificate and buy-back guarantee in the same sale?

Another one: https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2199617536&cpid=3687645184&filter_key=#cond You might muse at the price guarantee (and the word 'anytime') in the accompanying letter from Bein & Fushi!