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cellopera

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Posts posted by cellopera

  1. 3 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

    It's clear you own some wonderful instruments, which are, overall, in excellent condition.

    And this highlights why I asked, because my feeling is that it is easier to tell others to buy things, which you would never consider purchasing yourself.

    But to go back to the OP question, any instrument which is a potential money pit, or simply may prove to be unreliable/temperamental on a regular basis, should be checked out by a qualified luthier. It is then clear what one may be letting themselves in for, and the decision becomes much easier to make.
    This is a point others made on previous pages, and is the only sensible course of action. Particularly as none of us have seen the cello.

    Nice for you to assume that these are the only instruments that I own—false. I also have a no-name 19th century Cello made in Mirecourt (very temperamental), which is full of cracks that were repaired over the years. This one also sings like an angel!

  2. 1 hour ago, martin swan said:

    The last thing I want is a violin in my inventory which sounds poor since whatever its theoretical value I won’t be able to sell it.

    Thank you for answering my previous question… so sound does sell.

  3. 6 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

     

     

    I found this discussion interesting, but a bit frustrating.

    The three quotes above describe the quandary and hint at solutions.

    If the OP really likes the way the 'cello plays I would simply suggest he visit a very good and reliable third party restorer and pay them to examine the cello, note possible future problems, issues to be addressed now or in the near future, general stability,  and estimated (present) costs to make corrections for these issues.  That should give the buyer a general idea of how much of a money pit they would be acquiring... and how long it might be stuck on a bench.

    Knowing these factors, I'd imagine they would be able to determine if the acquisition makes sense to them.. and kmowing those costs will give them a rather good idea of the budget they actually are committing to (and allow them to compare other instruments within that budget should they wish).

    Concerning the tonal debate: I've been involved with repair, restoration buying selling for over 40 years. Never have I had a musician negotiate the price of an instrument by saying "I'll pay this much, because I don't quite love the sound".  Collectible instruments are a different animal, but not THAT different. The may be sold based on example, but everything must work reasonably well for the check to be written.

    Carry on.

    Well put!

  4. 7 hours ago, Rue said:

    Hmm. Just a question about objectivity/subjectivity.  I think we can all agree (more or less) what a Formula 1 engine sounds like, but (and here's the issue) what does an 'angel singing in heaven' sound like?

    1. Do angels actually sing?  Proof?

    2. What's their vocal range like? Mostly sopranos?  But your cello isn't soprano. Tenors?

    3. Where exactly is heaven?

    4. What are the acoustics like in heaven?  Are acoustics also dependent on climatic factors in heaven?  Damp? Dry? Windy? Reverb?

    5. Do angels only sing like cracked and repaired cellos?

    ...inquiring minds...^_^

    1. yes and no proof needed

    2. the cello has a range of 5 octaves, so basically every range. Love the sarcasm btw

    3. in my case, at home or on stage while playing

    4. irrelevant 

    5. only like cracked and subsequently repaired cellos

  5. 8 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

    The price of an instrument is based on the following objective criteria:

    - Maker or workshop
    - Condition
    - Appearance
    - Model
    - Size and specifications
    - Geographic origin
    - Age
    - Provenance

    That's it.

    Tone is not part of the price calculation, and the price is determined by the seller before the musician ever tries the instrument. So when a musician tries an instrument, he/she already knows what the price is, and the criteria I listed above are already built into the price. So tone and playability (which are subjective) are what the player considers in making a buying decision because they already know the objective criteria are reflected in the price.

    The pricing decision by the seller is separate from the buying decision of potential buyers.

     

    I agree, but that is besides the point. Of course one has a budget in mind as a buyer, but the sale is based in a big part by the tone it produces. 

  6. 2 hours ago, martin swan said:

    I think the important thing to know here is what’s your sample size.

    Any given musician has only ever bought one two or three instruments and has a few friends who offer more or less plausible anecdotes about their purchases. So their understanding of the motivations of other buyers is very limited by circumstance.

    Conversely, seasoned dealers may have sold many hundreds of instruments, and for each successful sale they have been able to observe the behaviour and thinking of 10 clients who didn’t buy.

    So they are basing their opinions on direct exposure to thousands of clients.

    Based on your comments, I can only assume that your clientele also involves other dealers and collectors beside musicians. Your regular professional musician that might be interested in purchasing a high value instrument, will immediately take it and test it against other valuable instruments and in different acoustics/settings. That’s where the magic happens and the truth reveals itself—on the stage.

    Now, based on your vast experience as a dealer, could you please answer this question: What is the percentage of professional musicians that might base their purchase on the condition of the instrument, and how many on the acoustic qualities of said instrument? Before giving an answer that combines the two, let me follow up with another question: Which of the two elements is in your opinion more important in the eyes/ears of the musician?

  7. 15 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

    How many cracks does your own cello have, 20+?

    Considering your name on this forum, I’m glad my cello didn’t land in your hands! I am currently playing on two cellos: a wonderful J.B. Vuillaume that had a sound post crack on the table which was fixed 25+ years ago and a base bar crack (it sounds like an angel singing in heaven), and a Bernardel père which sounds like a Formula 1 automobile—no cracks there whatsoever.

  8. 9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

    There seems to be an obstinate myth where people conflate smashed in condition with “great sound”, alternatively mint condition with “sounds like crap”. This is obviously moronic, since one certainly doesn’t cause the other

    The only moronic thing here is your interpretation of what was said here earlier. Maybe you should read the thread again.

  9. 7 hours ago, Victor Roman said:

    Mr. Swan, if I may ask : what does this mean ? Personally, I have never met a professional player who would not be interested in acquiring an instrument with great sound, often despite a less than mint conditions and insignificant investment potential , provided the price was right. Though surely amounting to many cups of coffee.   

    Exactly my point. I also never met a professional musician that would pass up a great sounding instrument because of some old cracks. On the contrary, a friend of mine recently bought a P.A. Testore cello that had an unusual amount of cracks, and not all of them repaired! When I touched it, I couldn’t believe how good it was sounding in that condition.

  10. 16 minutes ago, Blank face said:

    That's a somehow weird alternative. Usually it is "pay a bit more for an instrument you like to play which is in a reasonable condition, and where you can overlook additional costs" vs. "buy a bottomless pit for sentimental reasons".

    The musicians I know prefer mostly the first alternative, though I won't speak of them as "we, the...(fill in what you like)".

    As far as I'm understanding it's exactly this what the OP wants to find out.

     It probably depends on your clientele. Some amateurs prefer to be on the safe side. Professional musicians couldn’t care less about old cracks or even maintenance as long as the instrument is sounding great. So again, we, professional musicians, prefer great sounding instruments!

  11. On 9/21/2024 at 4:29 PM, David Burgess said:

    Cellopera, without pictures, there is no way we can have the slightest idea of how much of a wreck it is, or isn't. And while musicians may work with sound, the OP was asking specifically about future need for repairs, not sound.

    I get it.

  12. On 9/21/2024 at 5:24 PM, Blank face said:

    Don't know if to laugh or to cry each time when I'm hearing such pretentious attitude.

    From all the musicians I got to know (beside that nearly all around here are musicians, too, even when also making, repairing or dealing with instruments) I don't think that they would agree on such a unilateral statement. If they had elected an universal speaker, maybe this person had a legitimation to talk this way.:)

    Nothing pretentious about that, just a statement. In the words of Ricky Gervais: Just because you’re offended, doesn’t mean you’re right. I would rather have an instrument that I love, even though it might need constant maintenance and additional repairs, rather than having one in perfect condition that sounds like crap. Plenty of those out there. 

  13. 21 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

    Your post isn’t silly, rather pointless if you don’t show pictures of the cello. Also the random opinions of people who haven’t seen it seem worthless

    https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/333119-how-to-photograph-an-instrument-for-identifcation-purposes/

     

    Oh, how I missed your positive attitude… aren’t you a ray of sunshine? Who gives a shit about having to look at it? Not me! We, musicians, work with sound. If that’s what makes him happy as a musician, then let it be!

  14. If you are so satisfied with the sound and you feel that it can bring you to the next level, then buy it. I had a similar situation in 2016 with a Cello that was fantastic but very moody. I managed to fix the problem by controlling the humidity in the case and at home, and having regular check-ups.

  15. 7 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

    I would presume "the Usual" if you cant come up with any decent pictures

    Would you say €15000 is a fair price? The cello sounds pretty good.

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