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I think 7 degree is ok I said 5-7 degrees. I agree with your ideas, especially the kidology factor of some makers and restorers. It's easy to convince ourselves that a certain neck projection is ideal, but the Cannon has a projection of only 25.5, but due to the other variables, it works. My head hurts from too much thinking and I am slightly sleep deprived from carving many hours. So some of my original calculations were wrong. I am trying to err on the side of caution because I know that some very nice violins don't have these extreme angles. Is steeper better? Is more downforce desirable? Does it give more projection? I don't know. Let's keep the discussion going with some trigonometry added to the mix.

Re-re calculated. I used tan-1, should have used sine -1 for the nut to bridge doh! So the neck is 8.6 degrees string angle about 9.6 degrees My afterlength calculation used tan -1 which is correct. 180 - (8.6 + 1 + 14.3) = 156.9 degrees I'm not caculating the low overstand because I'm calculating angles from nut the bridge, but guessing the nut is in line with the top of the ribs? This nut position varies a lot from one instrument to the other, there is no trade consensus or industry standard for the nut position/neck angle so can we discuss these issues in a civil manner please? And if anyone has noticed any other mistakes in my calculations, please point them out. I will be grateful because this isn't an ego issue, it's a quest to work this stuff out.

Some more calculations With the Lady Blunt set up, using Peter K-G's measurements the neck angle nut to bridge is 9.8 degrees, so the strinag angles is about 10.8 degreese from horizontal and the afterlength 14. 8 degrees; string break angle 25.6 below horizontal or 154.4 degrees With a baroque set up, if the nut was 10mm higher as in these images: https://www.smithsonianchambermusic.org/collection/violin-shop-amati-ca-1670 The string angle is nearly 3 degrees less and with the tailgut level with the edging as in the baroque set up, the base of the triangle is about 5 mm longer and 6 mm lower, this gives an angle 1.5 degrees steeper so the total angle would be 24.5 degrees from horizontal or 155.5 degrees. So the whole string break angle issue is as clear as mud. I just wish to clarify that situation.

Trigonometry is confusing. Jacob Stainer, Nicolo Amati, Antonio Stradivarius, Giuseppe Guarneri, Jean Baptiste Vuillaume... just trying to dig where these cats heads were at man.

Looking through the Strad archive, there is a lot of variation in how the necks were reset. The position of the nut in particular varies a lot in relation to the body regardless of the overstand. But we can't discuss it? Too controversial? Come on fellas, someone has to ask these questions.

Some of those Gand & Bernadel violins do indeed have an extreme neck angle and with a normal overstand. Very extreme. I wish some of you could discuss this without making false assumptions about my intentions. Violins vary a lot in these variables don't they?

Excellent summary of some of the variables Martin. Yes 4 is contentious because the forces exerted are so vastly complicated and a change here might affect tensions or compressions over there in ways we don't understand etc I don't think 158 should be taken as a rule because it varies a few degrees. I would say the usual range is 157 to 160 and you and I and everyone else here will find violins in that range that we think are well set up and deliver what we expect of them. Were Gand & Bernadel influenced by Vuillaume's neck set on the Lady Blunt?

If you assume that those makers of old carved perfect symmetry. I don't believe they did.

I'm going with 5-7 degrees at the heel/neck plane. 4 degree would be better than 8 though. Add one degree for string angle between nut and bridge. Modern overstand seems to have been stardardised at 6mm, but variations done by competent luthiers and restorers who understand the overstand alteration of 1mm means more than 2mm at the bridge. The afterlength angle is altered mostly by the bridge height. So a discussion of bridge heights is needed to make any sense of these measurements.

Stradivari neck template? Of an original neck from 1710 I would love to see that. Please share it with us.

Please share your numbers.

Vuillaume might be the source of the 158, if my calculation (recalculation) for Il Cannone is correct? A few posts above.

Anzacs. I don't dislike them, they're just very needy, so I try to be friendly when they ply me with alchohol and try not to overdo the sympathy.

Easy solution, build a wall and get Canada to pay for it.

So, business as usual then?