miles
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Posts posted by miles
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The last one wanted me to scrape some varnish off my violin so he could send it to the lab. - guta
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Larry, did you give them the sample? [Light suddenly on] Yes! We can start a DNA database for matching famous makers and their instruments!!!! That will be much more scientific in determining the origin of the violins than just have "experts" looking at them. Fedex your sample today! :grin: (Gee, what happened to the smilie icons?)
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1st violin has got a soundpost back crack. Whether it is repaired or not is the question. It looks to be as there is no gapping on it.
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The soundpost crack looks like it was repaired, but not patched. And that might be the reason why the crack extended so much down the "road" from the original crack.
Because of that, to repair the crack becomes much more costly. Glenn, the case does look very nice even just outside.
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My private messages seem to have disappeared. Was that supposed to happen? - Sakura
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Hi Sakura,
In my line of work (IT), we call it undocumented "feature". :grin:
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Hey, How come I am now a "junior member"? I was an enthusiastic (I didn't have the title long enough to remember how to spell it)!
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- Jay,
One thing I noticed is that Andrew did not always completely revise his descriptions for his new auctions. That I ascribed in my previous posting to language barrier (that is, English is difficult to Chinese as much as Chinese to Westerners) he might not go through everything he wrote. On the other hand, I won't rule out the fact that he might have gotten lazy. Of course, we can always suspect an even worse scenario.
I have personal experience to back my claim up: In the description, he claimed that a violin I bought was the only one in the world, but then later he recycled the same "ad" he used to advertise another violin without revision but changing photos. Of course, I wrote to get clarification IMMEDIATELY. He responded right away and I had no problem with the explanation. btw. That was the reason why I believe he will explain if one asks a directly relevant question.
That said, the "super-man mystry" you pointed out might have been the case. But then again it might just have been Andrew's sloppy ad work. Take another more obvious example, Andrew claimed in a couple of Auction that xxx violins was made in the end of 2005. How could these violins be listed for auction in July then? (Heck, Andrew, don't accelerate my aging process. I wanna stay young, you know).
The slow of ZSM sales could have been what you suggested. But then again, as I mentioned in one posting in July/August that this summer was the slowest summer for a violin dealer in Chicago (don't know about others). I think Jesse also pointed out that there was a seasonal effect on violin sales. So the slow down ZSM violins could have been a victim of the "natural" cause. In addition, the fact that ZSM was delisted might have also played an important role in potential buyer's decision. I for one will certainly take that into consideration for my purchase.
In addition, relying upon feedback to determine how many sales have been done might be problematic. In order for that approach to be valid, one has to rely upon a few assumptions to be true:
(1) All Andrew's sales are recorded on eBay.
(2) All winners post feedback for their transactions.
However, both assumptions are false:
Take myself for example:
(1). I bought 5 violins and 1 cello from Andrew. Only 1 was going through eBay auction. So you would miss 5 sales transactions on your record.
(2) I left no feedback for Andrew because I have not received the aforementioned eBay item. Upon my request, Andrw graciously agreed to postpone our transactions until I am ready. (btw. He gave me no hassels before this thread even started. So I believe he's a good seller.) Therefore, you would miss all 6 feedbacks from me. Since my purchases were done in July/August, my transactions will certainly be missed in your "2 month" sales record.
btw. Do you always post feedback on your transactions? I certainly don't, not only in Andrew's case, but also in a lot of other cases as well.
Again, I am not trying to be devil's advocate, but I am trying to be fair and reaonsable.
Thanks for the ood observation and by and large "scientific" apporach, Jay.
- Violinbeginner,
Is it convenient for you to upload the original article you mentioned in your post to Glenn? I have not read it, but am very curious...
Thanks a lot in advance,
miles
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Yep. That's the kind of facts I was talking about. Hard evidence for everyone to examine, not just assert something as a matter of fact. That's very misleading.
>"signed in ink label" Doesn't prove a thing to anyone
As much as fake labels. I am with you. But unless it can be proved that ZSM was fictitious, I will not make such claim on him. Everything can happen. Who knows what's going on?
>The fact that the Amati foundation Dropped ZSM from their list tells me there is something fishy going on
Why is that? I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree "something is fishy going on". Not to say there wasn't anything fish going on, but your conclusion is not warranted. Something going on doesn't need to be "fishy".
>it is foolish IMO to buy from someone unwilling to show any proof that this ZSM even exists.
Echoed my point, "If you don't feel comfortable with a seller, move on." Buyer's call.
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I am in agreement with you for the most part, singingmaple:
If you have facts, provide them so that people can verify the validity. If not, clearly "label" so like the diction you used "My guess...", "telling me...", "IMO" and "personal thoughts".
Bravo! Well put, singingmaple. You've got your points across and yet asserted with due caution.
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>Miles you seem to think it's okay for a seller to refuse to provide information on the maker... bona fides.
Where did you deduce that? Nope. I didn't say that. What I said was:
(1). If you are not comfortable with a seller, don't do business with him/her.
(2). Andrew DID provide information on the maker ALTHOUGH WITH NO PROOF (please see his latest listings).
btw. Did you skip parts of my posting? Answer (1) & (2) are almost verbatim out of my previous posting(s).
>. Would you consider that reasonable if you were buying a $50,000 new Italian? I wouldn't and I don't for a $500 Chinese either.
That's exactly the point I was making. By the way, if you buy a violin from wsh519 (i.e. Andrew Wong), wouldn't you already know that you either get one made by the man himself or his workshop (i.e. labeled Zhang...)? What the heck are you talking about?
>I wouldn't and I don't for a $500 Chinese either.
A lot of Chinese instruments are unnamed. Too bad you are going to miss out on what, as Glenn recommended, would be good investment.
>That doesn't mean to say I disagree with Glenn; I don't.
Good for you. And?
> Glenn also noted, the violin biz, she no work that way.
What is "she no work that way"? Not to be offensive, please use standard English or add the missing word(s) if this is post to my attention. I don't understand what that means and I am not fond of slangs either.
Are you a violin seller/dealer? I am not a violin seller/dealer or whatever, you know. If people don't want to buy violin from Andrew Wong, I cannot make them to (btw. I don't know about you, but why would I, duh!). By the same token, if people want to buy violins from Andrew Wong, you cannot stop them.
> it should be purely the instruments sound that counts
Absolutely. But if you happen to own real Strads or other big name viloins with toy sounding projection, please don't forget to PM me. I will be more than grateful to buy out your million dollar worth violins for dimes. I mean it!
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Thanks a lot for sharing the files. How did you find these sites?
I like how your violin sounds. Do you have the 2nd movement as well?
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Hi Rookie,
English is my not first language so I may sound more "upset" than I really do as stated in my apology to Michael (Molnar).
As for the ZSM + 28 list, unfortunately I don't have a copy because I don't have any needs for it. But I think you can request it from Amati Foundation if they respond to you. That said, Michael did acknowledge that ZSM was on the list:
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Miles is right that ZSM first appeared on the Amamti Foundation list. - Michael Molnar
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It is healthy and fun to have discussion, but, as I stated in another post, I feel that we should assert/claim with caution when other people's livelihood is at stake. Michael and Glenn might be right in speculating that "ZSM was fictitious". If that's the case, we need to have proof; otherwise, our fantasy might jeopodize other people's livelihood without knowing. I don't think it is anyone's intention here on the board, but who knows what would be taken home? I don't usually get into topics/issues like this if you guys noticed. The only reason is that I don't know any other sellers discussed on this board except for Andrew. Andrew came across to be a good seller and that was the reason why I would like to speak up letting the other side of opinion be heard. No hard feeling.
Hi Glenn,
Thanks for the clarification.
What you have unleashed? Soon you will notice that my 'TITLE' is going to change again from member to addict (right?) and rightfully so. What do you say? Thank you for the boster.
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Hi Michael,
I apologize if I sounded upset. And I was not taking the issues personally. As I responded to Glenn's sepculation, I am not Andrew Wong (but I don't mind to be Bill Townsend or even Bill Gates though. That's right, I wanna be Bill. Yep, Bill I am.
[/img]). I am just a person, who happens to have excellent experience buying Andrew's violin and who is not afraid of speaking her mind. In any case, I remain incredulous and skeptical.
Totally. You have every right to feel so. Although I respect intellectuall's opinion, in order to convince me, one needs to show me how the opinion is supported by facts/evidence.
I disagree with your concept of buyer and seller obligations.
My apology again: the seller-buyer concept applies as such:
1. Before transaction: in general
2. After transaction: The seller indeed bears after-sales responsibility in a transaction. As far as an auction is concerned, unless the merchandise differs from the description by an unacceptable degree, the seller should be allowed to use his/her discretion and the buyer should have means of protecting him-/herself.
The beauty of educated democracy is that everyone is allowed to speak up his/her mind (hopefully, intelligently), but prevail shall only be the ones, which can be supported by proof/evidence or reasoning.
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An out patient surgery on a foot, the bill was over $11K. /yuen/
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Yuen, you are making me feel so bad now: I could have been a physician now if I didn't... I was too young to know that my foot would be worth $11K.
Or maybe we can ask the outpatient doctor to take the bus. He may give a discount for that (now the bill is $10K).
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Miles,
Why don't you ask "Andrew" for ZSM's address. Then, contact ZSM and tell us what you learned. We can only speculate ad nauseum into perpetuity until someone contacts ZSM. - Michael Molnar
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Michael,
In this cited post, I thought you asked me to ask Andrew for Zhang's address. Was I mistaken? But in you last post, you said you wanted me to qualify ZSM instruments. I didn't get that request in the cited post. Andrew already qualifies his instruments with "made by" or "labeled" (i.e. Quality Control). What got you confused?
With all due respect, I disagree with your statement, "there is the mystery created by Andrew's confusing eBay posts about ZSM and the Amati foundation". ZSM was INDEED on the Amati list I saw it with my own eyes and other members on this board also attested to it. What is the confusion there? Pardon me being slow, but I don't get it.
In addition, it was Glenn who "spelled it out" that ZSM was fictitious in the first place, why don't you ask him where he got his source or why did he not respond to my repeated question? Should I suspect anything? Furthermore, Amati delisted ZSM, and in my humble opinion, whoever is curious about that should ask Amati foundation, not Andrew/ZSM about why ZSM was delisted. Finally, Andrew did specify "made by ZSM" or "labled ZSM, i.e. QCed/QAed by ZSM" on his auctions (I mentioned this in previous posts as well), so I don't know why you would doubt that some violins were made by ZSM, some by his workshop. I am equally confused why this is so unclear to you.
>The confusion, inconsistency, and refusal to explain creates an air of suspicion that something is not quite right.
I own a vioin made by Zhang with certificate of authenticity. So I am not confused and I don't need any explanation (unless I can prove that ZSM was fictitious as Glenn stated). If Glenn can give me solid proof that ZSM indeed is fictitious, I can demand Andrew to give me an explanation. BUT I don't have any prove from Glenn that ZSM is fictitious. Thus, Andrew DOES NOT owe me any explanation.
And what is the suspicion? According to mamawelder, Andrew started selling Zhang's instruments as least 3 years ago, which was well before the Amati listing. Should we suspect that Anrew was a psychic because he knew well in advance that Amati was going to mess up in their listings? In terms of linking to the already-famous person marketing strategy, if your name appears on the Amati list (and you happen to be a luthier), shouldn't your exporter/manager market it so? What's the problem here? If Amati messed up, we should ask Amati, not the marketer.
Looking at both sides, from what is suggested in you post, Andrew failed to explain questionsw which he might have felt were none-sense, that to us is not acceptable because we deserve an explanation. On the other hand, some members on the board can assert and accuse with no proof or explanation, but that is acceptable to us because we can just accept it as a matter of fact? It sounds like double standard or big ego here.
To be fair, a seller has the right not to explain and the buyer has the right not to buy. If anyone has a problem with a seller for any reason, move on. Why do business with someone you don't feel comfortable with? In my case, I saw no confusion, no inconsistency (on the contrary, to me it was very consistent: When ZSM was on the list, Andrew announced it and he was delisted, he took it out) and he DID explain although no proof (please see his latest listings).
Michael, if you are a customer, why don't you ask him yourself? If you are not a customer, I guess you are just as nosy as me. So I've got company.
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why in the first place reference was made to Amarti Foundation where Mr. ZSM was not one of the 33 master makers?
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Minor correction, Rookie, when ZSM made the Amati list, there were only 29, NOT 33 master makers. The other 4 were added later:
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*ZSM + 28 MMakers = Amati 2004 - 2005 list => X(Glenn, Andrew) => ZQ + 32 MMasters = Amati 2005 revised list*
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Legends:
X_Glenn: ZSM = ficticious
X_Andrew:
To be frank, I have a bit hard time believing that ZSM is fictious from beginning. However, I won't be too surprised if there were some kind of lobbying activities going on. Just my wild thoughts (or 2 cents as they say?) since I don't have any facts or anything to suggest that. Pure speculation only.
Die Gedanken sind frei!!!
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Michael,
We are on the same page here or should we flatter ourselves by saying "Great minds think the same?" Yes, I thought of doing that. But then again, it borders upon "business secrete" as ZSM is really how he gets his merchandise. Therefore, I dare not cross this line and that is the main reason why I never ask.
I grew up in Chinese society and should know better. Things like the aforementioned are just like what you would consider impolite/rude in the US:
"What do you make per year?"
"How much do you pay for your rent?"
"How much did you pay for xx merchandise?"
"Why did you break up with your girl-/boy-friend?"
etc., etc...
To most Chinese or even most Asians, these questions are not exactly that offensive. btw. My country fellows please correct me if I am wrong or my experience has been severely outdated since I have spent most of my life overseas back in the 80's.
So I am very curious myself, but I would rather wait for Andrew to let me know on his own. If not, I respect his decision since truly he has no obligation to feed our curiosity. That said, if Andrew does give me the privilege to "verify" Mr. Zhang, I would ask him for permission to update everyone who's interested in the "bottomline". (Hmm, what title should I come up with to increase hits? "ZSM, not ZQ". Extra, extra, read all about it starting $49, NO RESERVE!)
On the other hand, I would very much like to have Glenn tell us where he got his "juice and news" about "Amati finally realized that ZSM was fictious". Since Glenn made that claim, it shouldn't be too difficult to get the story. Glenn, you don't mind sharing the Amati "mess-up" with us, do you? My bambi eyes are blinking.
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Originally it cited Zhang Shu Mei but found out this was a ficticious name. - GlennPA
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Glenn,
Adding to Violinbeginner's question, do you know how the Amati foundation found out ZSM was fictious? What is your source for this lead?
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I suppose you mean violin cases? I have a French bam and unknown Chinese cases. I like the French bam for traveling because it is very light and suspension seems to be good too. But Chinse cases seem to be more sturdy and have the little device for monitoring humidity.
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Larry and Dave, Thanks a lot for sharing the trade secret.
I am going to get a string bladder and alomond oil since it smells really good and I might be able to use it at the swimming pool as well. Besides, I cannot wait until the moon is full.
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Hi Linda,
Thanks a lot for the clarification. Now I think everyone who's interested in this thread can judge for themselves. From this board, I learned a lot about what to avoid and who to avoid as well as who to buy and what to buy. So I want to make sure that we all get the full picture and make our own "educated" guess in purchasing on eBay (who knows what would change, thus the word educated). And yes, so far I am a happy customer of his, and I only knew of him/ZSM because of this board.
As Glenn wisely summarized, "...we gain some and we lose some". I lost big time back in 2001, but gained some this year. I hope my good luck and other people's good luck continue due to the more accurate information we receive.
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mamawelder - "Instead, I did what I could to improve the sound and resold it for less than it cost me to a beginner and cut my losses to several hundred dollars. Why would you spend money to improve the sound if you plan on cutting your losses? That doesn't make much sense. Like selling a used car, regardless of new parts your replace, you will not be able to get the money, you know. If you had worked on the cello before you contacted the seller, it would make more sense to me if he gave you hassel for returning since it was NOT the same any more (even though it might mean the quality had been improved).
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Larry, would you please find the article?
I am always in awe when people can tell what is what just by looking at photos. You cannot imagine how impressed I was when Jesse told me about my violins and even the broken bow which came with one of them just by looking at the photos online!!! What he said was practically the same as my luthier friend said except for the age. In addition, Jesse predicted my violins would sound very good and it did (one of them only had three old strings on and the other had nothing on). Gee, I was in awe like a dummy when I heard the luthier friend played. How did Jesse do that!!!
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Larry, it sounds very interesting, but I am wondering will the rosin dust gets stuck on the strings and become difficult to get rid of? Sorry I noticed that my violin got a lot of rosin dust on the strings already without the oil.
I was told that gut strings were not "beginner friendly" because I would have to tune the violin every day (heck, I don't know how). But I think I am going to give it a shot with your ideas.
Thank you so much!
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Sorry Glenn, I missed this post yesterday (just changed my viewing mode to flat; the old one was difficult to keep track of new posts).
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Miles, Are you Andrew Wong?
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Glenn, I think it will be easier for Andrew to be me than the other way around. All he needs to do is to get a good surgeon or just get a dress and high heel shoes. Well, he may wanna put on some makeup as well. Oh, almost forgot to mention: He also needs a wig with long hair.
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There are a lot of other things involved.
for example "rarity" , "age", "name of the makes" "once owned by XXX" ... "so-and-so endorsed it"...."Magazine had an article on this Brand" .."A rich beautiful young lady found it together with a real Strad in her attic "... etc.
PS. Anyone remember the photo " A beautiful young lady wears a bikini and holds a violin with a smile"? Test your memory.
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Yuen, it was popular well before I was born. So I don't know, but I can guess though.
Here you go:
1) rarity = bikini (i.e. just barely enough to cover important "points")
2) age = smile (i.e. not telling)
3) name of the makes = real Strad
4) once owned by XXX = her attic
5) so-and-so endorsed it = A (rich) beautiful young lady
6) Magazine had an article on this Brand = www.maestronet.com
How do you like it, Master yuen?
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[/img]). I am just a person, who happens to have excellent experience buying Andrew's violin and who is not afraid of speaking her mind. 
Zhang Shu Mei and Amarti Foundation
in The Pegbox
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I think you are looking for certainty where none exists in the violin world (or most worlds, for that matter).
One has to deal with the balance of probabilities.
Unless you stand behind the maker of an instrument throughout every step of construction, you will never know 100% who made it.
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Hi Glenn,
I totally agree with your statement, "Unless..., you will never know 100% who made it." I wonder who would disagree and the statement applies to evrey violin (and beyond).
But I do disagree with "you are looking for certainty where none exists in the violin world". I am not. What I was looking for is, as stated in my last long post , stating facts with certainty and stating opinion with qualifying signal (e.g. IMO, I think, I feel etc) especially when that statements may potentially bring negative effect to other's liveliehood.
I must apologize if I sounded like I was grilling you. It was not my intention, and again thank you for giving your clarification.