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Blank face

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Posts posted by Blank face

  1. 54 minutes ago, martin swan said:

    I don't see this as French work, unless of some very rough and ready kind that I'm not familiar with.

    The inside work now looks like what I've seen at cheap French producton, like I mentioned before, from the late 19th century period. Lininigs and blocks made of willow, roughly cut and assembled, tooth plane marks at the inner ribs, also the wide grain of the belly is what they used for these. OTOH the blocks are usually wider and at the outside the purfling rather scribed or inked, as at Medio Finos, Grandinis and the like.

    So IMO there's a possibility that the violin was a sort of knock-off from a Vogesian shop, but they wouldn't have been allowed to use the Derazey brand, which appears to be very spurious (and BTW the brand of the Ebay link is a Just, not an  Honore stamp).

    With your conclusions about alterations and actual value and use  I agree completely.

  2. 4 minutes ago, noidea22 said:

    So, with the now opened violin and the pictures of the blocks, that I posted, do you still think it could be or is that old french method?

    A hint could be if the corner blocks were longer in the middle bouts or the lining tips were glued over the blocks, what we can not see by the actual photos.

  3. 11 hours ago, pipper said:

    The fittings are 100% silver (except for the liner of course)

    Hard to tell from pictures, but I would doubt it. Even the workmanship is not like the quality what's usually seen at silver mounted bows of this origin. But if you're saying it....

  4. There are two things mixed together: A mitred rib joint, what can indicate several methods of construction, and a morticed lining into an assymetrical corner block. The last is connected with an inside mould construction, or, like with Vuillaume and others from his tradition, an imitation of this.

    The OP is possibly either made with an outside mould (used frequently with Mirecourt mass production) or even the old French construction method building the ribs around preinstalled blocks. With both the blocks would concur, but it's no defintely prove that the violin was factually made in France, only that it could be.

    Otherwise I agree that it is altered to a degree making it difficult to decide by photos alone what it is/was and that the belly by the new clearer photo is made of two pieces.

  5. Thanks for the photos. It looks like a roughly late 19th century Mirecourt. Still not very clear, but the belly seems to be one piece and the rib joints mitred. 
    Nothing to do with Derazey, but it looks much nicer than I had expected from the inside photos. Unfortunately somebody overworked the ff for an unknown reason and added inserts around them. The inlay at the end pin was probably (very roughly) put there later. Maybe the person who did this also applied the brand, maybe it was there from the start.

  6. 2 hours ago, reg said:

    Is a split back then a diagnostic difference between Saxon V French?


    2 hours ago, noidea22 said:

    He was referring to the belly/front. If I understood @Blank face correctly, a one-piece front would at least throw Markneukirchen out of the pool of possibilities.

    Yes, a one piece belly was used by many schools, but I never found a Markneukirchen/Schönbach with this feature. In Mirecourt I saw it comparatively often, especially at the cheaper production around 1900 like Medio Fino and similar (but on very good one, too). Mittenwald shows it often, too. Maybe it had something to do with the wood sources, or just a matter of tradition.

    The back isn't significant in this regard.

  7. 1 hour ago, noidea22 said:

    @FiddleDoug@Blank face you guys got me interested in a particular question. Are there Markneukirchen violins in existence with copied H. Derazey stamps? Is something like this known?

    To my knowledge not in original condition. Actually there are fakes available with every imitated stamp one can imagine, especially in EBay.

    OTOH there are violins of a Schönbach origin in existence which were obviously labeled and sold by French firms, especially of the “Caussin” type. If I would speculate that this might have to do with incidents after WW1 I surely would be heavily insulted again by Mr Hempel.:wacko: But mostly they were from a prewar period.

  8. 8 minutes ago, noidea22 said:

    Sorry for the pictures, it's hard to take pictures from the inside, when the instrument is not open. And I only have photos from the inside, so far, since I didn't intend this post to be an ID post. I'm gonna take the violin with me today or tomorrow, so I can take more pictures, especially from the outside and create an ID post. But thx so far for sharing your thoughts.

    If it’s not opened, close shots of the rib join would be informative. In general, I would even expect a Dreazey branded violin by Mangenot or Laberte to be worked more neatly, but one can never know.


    If your really interested in learning about construction methods and other related topics it would be IMO much more useful to use the search function or a Google search with Maestronet…(topic of interest) and study these than to post randomly picked photos from the internet or insignificant details from elsewhere, which don’t have any useful informations. Everything you were asking was discussed and explained here many times before, and endless repetition isn’t attractive to many.

  9. 16 minutes ago, tetler said:

    Isn't this the center seam?


    The grain seems to cross this line in the upper region and I would expect a book matched belly to have more symmetrical grain figures. But as I wrote, by this photos it is all guesswork. 
    Necessary would be complete and focused pictures inside, outside, bird’s views of corner blocks, bar etc. to tell anything with a certain significance.

  10. By this few and poorly taken photos it is a guessing game, but the belly seems to be made from one piece without a middle seam, therefore it's not a Dutzendarbeit but Mirecourt work. That's also indicated by the stamp which was used by the Mangenot and later the Laberte firm.

    The bassbar is very roughly carved but the joint to the belly is relatively straight and without the scribe line which can be found at carved bars, therefore probably glued (as expected from Mirecourt violins). The construction method should be with an outside mould, so the rib joints would be mitred, what can be seen from a birds view of the cornerblocks.

  11. I agree that it looks like something from Mittenwald (or maybe Austrian, what I don’t know that detailed), before 1800, and that the varnish looks so pale as if it was stripped at some point. Rests of the original color are visible especially at the pegbox rear, front scroll windings and the C bout ribs.

    There seems to be a very long repaired bottom post crack.

  12. Views like this make me assume that it is built on the back with pinched rib joints, but imitating the shape of a different building method. Also a combination of bob with a fully fluted scroll (to the bitter end) is what I found occasionally at instruments of the Bohemian school. We would need better focused photos to see if this is the case here.


  13. 20 minutes ago, ole timer said:

    Otherwise why would it be a short neck?

    Because the person making the graft was shortsightened or for any other incidental reason. That's just a game of speculation but doesn't tell anything about when or for which reason it was made

  14. The internal coating could be Beize (stain), maybe combined with some oil, propolis or whatever they liked to apply. Looks like a better Markneukirchen/Schönbach fiddle from the early 1900s. If there are "real" upper blocks, sort of fake blendings or none doesn't really matter for anything, it's still a built on the back.

  15. What do you mean with morticed linings? Morticed deeply into corner blocks which are 1/4 in the C-bouts and 3/4 in the outer, or just 1 mm or so cut into symmetrical blocks? This would make a huge difference in the way it was build.

    Maybe I'm not very experienced with contemporary trade violins, but there's nothing what looks French to me, but a lot (edges, purfling joints, scroll chamfers, wood, treatment of the spruce top and so on) what looks Chinese.

  16. 18 hours ago, nathan slobodkin said:


    Thanks for your comments. I’ll be more careful of off the cuff opinions from now on.

    It’s not that I didn’t started once with similar assumptions, but one becomes more realistic/careful with experience. One thing at the Seidel book is that they made dendros to most instruments and the results were that many of those thought to be made in the 18th century by older literature (David Hopf for example) couldn’t be made before 1820 or later. Just what reason would tell. There are very few Vogtlandish instruments made in by and preserved from the 18th, before the start of the enlarged trade organization makers were spending probably a big part of their lifetime as farmers for simple subsidence.

  17. 3 hours ago, gaseff said:

    Has anyone seen a body extended like this before?  What would be the purpose of that?

    That's the unoriginal belly from an old Mittenwald, altered to make it fit the back and ribs. This would be another purpose beside enlarging a small viola.

    I would rather doubt that the OP viola is/was from a Saxon/Bohemian origin, but in the actual state and by photos hard to tell.


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