Blank face

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  1. This was answered very extensively not only in this thread before, but also in both of the linked, external links, a quote of Spidlen etc etc., more or less the topic of the whole. Obviously you don't read, so another answer would be useless anyway. Exactly such strangely unrelated posts are giving me the impression of talking to a robot.
  2. My posts weren't adressed at you only, so please don't take everything personally. Factually these "Modellzettel", how they were named often in a misleading way (because they usually didn't describe any sort of model, but were inserted just randomly) were used and printediny very different circumstances and used in bery differnt ways, too. The Markneukirchner sheets, for example shown in the Kauert book, could be bought by any person and inserted into anything, so it is a misconception that they would allow to deduct to a certain shop or factory. There were particular sorts of labels with monograms, trademarks etc,, with Neuner & Hornsteiner, JTL or other signs giving some evidence, or defined model names of certain shops. Furthermore it's true that the lettering or sort of paper might tell you if it's from the type used in France or Germany, Mittenwald or Markneukirchen and a rough period, but this doen't necessarily imply that the violin whith such a label is definitely from the same origin. Having said this, I wrote before that the OP's label is of a type I'm familiar with. Just in this moment I have an opened Mittenwald instrument on my bench featuring an identically printed label, just giving me the name of some "Giovanni Fiorillo Ferrara" Can't say if it's a real copy because I'm unfamiliar with this maker, but I know that it's a violin of early till mid 19th century Mittenwald origin I'm having through other features, and that's enough. I doesn't make much sense to argue here, but factually this sort of instrument, made in cooperation/division of labour is giving bread and butter to most of the violin dealers and restorers, the "fine" will add the fruit and meat. Being able to seperate between "cheap", "better" or "top grade" is essential, also to distinguish periods, regions, schools and styles of making, also about the originality of the varnish. So mixing it all up as "factory or home made, all with facsimile Italian labels, no difference, all the same crap" is a luxury such a person (which I am) can't afford at all. Mind, I'm not saying that you implied this nor quoting any of your words. Just trying to make it more understandable.
  3. All this points are valid, and one should consider that "heat" is a catalysator accelerating processes which can happen also without it, just more slowly (I'm not a chemist) Nice door, leave it as is. There might be real burned violins showing similar phenomenas, but it's just a fact of long-time experience, that basically all instruments of certain origins and with this particular varnish are showing this appearance, some more, some less distinctive. It's not a coincidence that we have this discussion the second or third time now, so one might excuse me being a bit impatient (especially if certain posters are involved, coming up earlier with some odd opinions). The territorial aspect applies more to the "strip and revarnish" arguments causing me some sort of allergical reaction.
  4. I don't want to become semantic, but in my eyes is a difference between a factory with big halls, many workers doing the same action at the same time in many different steps (this was more the way Mirecourt was doing it, the catalogues often are showing it in pictures) and small cottages with crafts(wo)men. How the Mittenwald "Verlegersystem" worked was described here before by me and in the quote of Spidlen. No, not "factory" IMO. Furthermore I would deny that one can tell by the use of a "fake italian" label how a violin was produced. That would be a much too easy approach. The type of label the OP is featuring I have seeen before at several 19th Mittenwald, that's right. What's puzzling me more than sematical seperations is that this type of varnish being discussed here leads automatically to conclusions like cheap nasty "factory" made. That's simply not true.
  5. Agree that the crackling at the cello looks different from the OP. But I can assure you, that I've seen several times both sorts (the pearl alike "pimples" and the "alligatorskin") at the same instrument. So I won't speculate about the exact caus(es), but rather state that the often claimed cause "heat" based on an optical similarity to something like burned wood is misleading. The first thread I linked to above had a crackling very similar to the OP here, and it was assumed a long time to be a Mittenwald, too (what the OP based on the inside work is), but turned later out to be more probably English, just due to the different construction. So there might be an easily to distinguish difference neither.
  6. All this was answered in the threads I linked to, one should only bother to read them instead of wasting time again in redundant discussions (it was suggested it's bitumen BTW). The only things which can't be repeated often enough are: - such violins aren't "factory made" - they aren't "not very valuable" - having some experience one can easily notice that there are many thousands of this "blackish craqueled varnish" violins out there, so that it's extreme unlikely, better to say impossible that they all were heated, burned, stored in a hot attic or whatever fancy tales are told - stripping and revarnishing them is just irrational, better to say stupid, because this would diminish their value from several thousands (or more) to next to nothing. At least I suggest to take a look at Jan Spidlen's website, who is regarded not only as a fine maker but as one of the most knowledgeable experts on German and Bohemian violins; here the link once more: https://spidlen.com/cz-en/obchod/nabidka-nastroju/mitt1850vcl.php?l=en He didn't only leave alone the blackish incrustation of the varnish exactly as it is, seeing obviously no devaluation or flaw in it and has sold the cello probably in the meantime, but gives a similar explanation like we gave here before. To make it easy I quote it: "A handsome violoncello from Mittenwald (Bavaria), maybe work of Johann Knilling II (1822-1905) or one of his contemporaries. It is impossible to identify the author with certainty. At this time the violin makers in Mittenwald cooperated widely. Some made the rough work, some finished the instruments, others did the varnishing. The sales were almost exclusively provided by the big sale companies Neuner & Hornsteiner and Johann Anton Bader. The instruments and also bows were often supplied without any brand, depending on demand. More information on the Mittenwald violin making school is on the local Museum's site. Nevertheless, this is a very good instrument, made after the Stradivari model with ideal measurements. Noticeable is the thick oil ruby cracled varnish, reminding that of J. Hubička. The Cello has a few repaired cracks in the belly and ribs, incl. a sound post crack. It sounds very well. "
  7. Here's another example of a dark crackled cello without "stored in the attic" tell tale. The seller is obviously more aware of facts. https://spidlen.com/cz-en/obchod/nabidka-nastroju/mitt1850vcl.php?l=en
  8. Exceptional provenance "Stored in the attic for many years". Awesome. At Ebay there are several dozens a day to be found from "according to owners stored in the attic etc.", usually Strads and the like. You could make a fortune.
  9. Or old husband's. We could call clueless explanations from now on "Paganini's file", for political correctness.
  10. As I said above, about all questions, the pros and cons you can read again here and save a lot of time for another discussion. and here
  11. That's why you never, ever trust any popular explanations like "looks similar to something (burned wood), therefore must be the same". The other thread took about 5 or 6 pages to explain why all the ten thousands of violins with a varnish looking like this weren't all saved from burning houses, stored at hot attics, heated car trunks, close to camp fires or more fancy but wrong anecdotes. Exhausting.
  12. Not exactly. This might apply to certain Mirecourt or EH Roths etc. Mittenwald had no factories but homeworkers making boxes, necks, varnishing etc. from ressources delivered to them by the Verleger firms, but based on a more traditional handcrafting with inside moulds. These are, especially when made in the 19th century, much more sought after and better paid than same period Markneukirchens (when having the original varnish). Agree that it isn't a big affair wether to replace the bar or not. If it's fitting and easily to reglue I would keep it, if not make a new one.
  13. I'm not really sure about this, but it seems that regions like the center of the bottom and touch points of the belly have a sort of "natural" polish by contact and didn't craze or darken due to this. But that's only speculative. But I'm used to see it this way. The OP wrote that the bar is 14.5 mm high and the top beside it 4mm, so that's an ok measurement IMO; but even 10.5 isn't so much out of the range. The violin isn't "factory, but made by Mittenwald homeworkers, what we can see for example at the linings morticed into the corner blocks with a "point". I won't call it a Ruggieri "copy" neither, rather a randomly glued in label which could carry any other name.
  14. A very idiosyncratic feature of the blank violins is the rib garland carved fron a single piece. As far as I can tell the instrument at the photos has it, too, while Nick's example looks like made with bent ribs.