skiingfiddler

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  1. skiingfiddler

    Method for determining arching height?

    Hope some questions from a non-maker about measuring arching heights are ok. What distances are used for arching height measurement? I assume that one point is the highest point in the plate arching. But what do you measure down to?: The surface that the plate would be sitting on if it were detached and lying on that surface? (In other words, is the thickness of the plate included in the arching height?) The outside surface of the plate at its lowest point? (You're not including plate thickness.) If you are not including the plate thickness in the arching height, where on the plate surface do you measure down to?: Where the plate is thickest, probably at the edges, or more inward, in the channel, where the plate would be thinner?
  2. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Stephen, Thanks for that tip, and thanks for your willingness to offer help throughout this thread. I will search for examples.
  3. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Jacob, Nobody's trying to convince you to become a consignment dealer. I would hope that you would allow others to do consignment selling if they wish.
  4. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    I don't regard it as a favor. It's a business transaction in which I can get my property sold, and the dealer (the consignee) is compensated typically by 20% to 30% of the selling price. The dealer has no property at risk, while possibly earning a sizable sum. As others have mentioned, consignment selling is an acceptable business model, at least in the USA, offering advantages to both consigner and consignee. My questions about a consignment agreement is what it should look like so that this business transaction gets done to both the consigner's and consignee's satisfaction.
  5. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Jacob, I assume your reference to a "draft contract" is to my outline in the initial post, and not specifically to Stephen Perry's old contract. Either way, it sounds like you, in no way, would do something that is pretty common here in USA, consignment selling. Is there any consignment selling in Austria at all by dealers who aren't auction houses? Any you know of in Europe? I assume the only response you could offer a violin owner who wants to sell an instrument is to buy the instrument outright from them. That's fair enough.
  6. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Stephen, I realize that "fair market value" is ambiguous. I assume that that could be resolved by having a line in the contract: "Fair market value is _________." Alternatively, one can use another term. If the proposed addition were to appear in your old contract, I assume that addition would make reference to "minimum sale price." The addition in your old contract would thus read: "Prior to the dealer ending ownership of their business or prior to the dealer beginning the process of declaring bankruptcy, the dealer agrees to return to the consigner the consigner's property or the minimum sale price established in item 2" The wording, I leave to lawyers, but the idea was to hopefully get the instrument back before a shop closes or goes bankrupt. In line with Jacob's thinking, I was afraid that there is no inoculation for the consigner against bankruptcy. There is no way to force a dealer to deal with return of instruments before closing its doors. Would the UCC-1 force a dealer to return instruments before filing for bankruptcy? Would there be any harm in having both the above proposed addition to a consignment agreement in the consignment contract and doing the UCC-1? Does that create any conflict? The proposed addition would at least remind the dealer what' the consigner expects of the dealer.
  7. skiingfiddler

    Kid tripping to Hamburg. Violin shops?

    Philip, I found another address for Geigenbau Winterling in the town of Walsrode, south of Hamburg and east of Bremen. https://finde-offen.de/walsrode/geigenbau-winterling-gmbh-1921654 Apparently, they moved out of Hamburg into a town of 23,000. Can that be right?
  8. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Stephen, Does the part I quoted from your post indicate that you believe the following proposed addition to a consignment agreement would be acceptable and enforceable in a consignment agreement? (I took the proposal from my post on Manfio's thread.) Proposed addition to consignment agreement: "Prior to the dealer ending ownership of their business or prior to the dealer beginning the process of declaring bankruptcy, the dealer agrees to return to the consigner the consigner's property or its fair market value." i don't want to appear anonymously, here, while you are being quite open. I know nothing formally about law. Many thanks, Steven Csik
  9. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    Stephen Perry, Many thanks for that form. That answers a lot of my questions. I'm surprised by item 7, risk of loss. That item makes the consigner responsible for any damages while the instrument is with the dealer. I would have thought that shop insurance, rather than owner's insurance, would cover that. That leads me to believe a consigner had better check with consigner's insurance to see if consigner's insurance would cover the instrument in the shop. That, or seek another consignee, who is willing to insure the instrument while in the shop. In a contract like the one, above, I wonder which insurance would cover the instrument while it's out on trial. I'm guessing it would not be the dealer's (consignee's) insurance, if the dealer doesn't want to insure the instrument while it's in the shop. The more I think about it, the less I like item 7. I wonder if it's typical. Anyway, thanks again. Would you be willing to elaborate on the changes you would like to make?
  10. skiingfiddler

    Kid tripping to Hamburg. Violin shops?

    PhilipKT, Back in the late 1960s, one of prominent violin shops in Hamburg was the Winterling shop. That was 50 years ago, so I have no idea how the shop is doing today. But that might be a place to look in. The maker Georg Winterling passed away in the 1st half of the 20th century, but the shop, in the late 1960s, still carried his name. Here's the website, but it's all in German: https://www.geigenbau-winterling.de The current name is "Geigenbau Winterling." How do foreign buyers in Europe these days deal with the VAT (value added tax)? Are they exempt if they're just passing through?
  11. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    deans, Thanks for the tips. I will definitely seek clarity on allowing or not allowing set up modifications. I hadn't thought about using auctions. I might consider using one dedicated to string instruments and related items only. That might be a good place to sell the books, too. That deserves further research. My concern about auctions with public viewings is the idea I have that there isn't any oversight about how potential customers are handling the instruments. Any stranger can walk in and handle an instrument. (At least that's been my experience with the auctions I've been to, but those weren't auctions associated with major auction houses.) At least with an instrument on consignment, possible buyers go through some kind of filtering process by having a dealer present the instrument to them.
  12. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    PhilipKT, Thanks for that suggestion. I've never used Ebay, so I probably won't do that. You bring up a good point. Selling the books will probably take a very different route than selling the instruments and bows. Some violin dealers sell books, but I don't know if they are willing to sell books on consignment.
  13. skiingfiddler

    Contents of a consignment agreement

    It's time to plan for selling off some of my instruments, bows, and books. Manfio's recent thread made me aware that I really don't know anything about consignment agreements, what's typical, what isn't, what the consigner (the instrument owner) should look for to protect oneself. Never having seen a consignment agreement, i assume it should contain the following: 1. A statement of the selling price. This could be done in the following ways: -- a. As an exact, single number. The dealer agrees to sell the instrument at that exact price. Changing that price would require getting confirmation for the change from the consigner. -- b. As a price range. The dealer could negotiate within that price range without consulting the consigner. -- c. No specific price or range at all. The consigner trusts the dealer to get fair market value with no additional consultation with the consigner. 2. A time-frame for the consignment. Possibilities are: -- a. The consigner and dealer agree on a certain date, prior to which the consigner will not seek return of the instrument. After that date the consigner may ask for the return of the instrument, having given the dealer adequate notice, say, 7 days. -- b. There is no time-frame, but the consigner may retrieve the instrument at any time, giving adequate notice, say 7 days, which the dealer may need to retrieve the instrument out on trial. Once the dealer gets the notice that the consigner wants to retrieve the instrument, the dealer may no longer pursue its sale, even if it is in the hands of a willing buyer. -- c. The dealer will no longer offer the instrument for sale after a certain, specific date, and the consigner must retrieve the instrument within a certain time period after that date, say, 14 days. 3. Fees for consignment. Any of the following can apply, I assume: -- a. A commission for the dealer based on the selling price. I remember this to be between 20 and 30%. Has that changed?. -- b. As an alternative to a, above, a fixed amount of dollars charged by dealer, regardless of selling price. I've never heard of this, but maybe it happens with inexpensive instruments. -- c. A charge for making needed repairs prior to offering the instrument for sale. -- d. A price for evaluating the instrument to arrive at a fair selling price. The dealer will need to evaluate condition and provenance of the instrument to determine a fair selling price. Also the dealer would need to know market history and current market demand, specifically for that instrument and generally for instruments. The dealer could, reasonably, charge a fee for that. Maybe they don't. I thank anybody with experience with consignment agreements who can offer their insights into what works and what doesn't, and can offer judgments about what I've assumed, above.
  14. skiingfiddler

    Violin shop bankruptcy in Chicago

    Manfio, Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I hope some of the legal advice offered above helps you. I hope there's some comfort for you in knowing that you've made people aware of a possible problem in consignment that we instrument owners hadn't considered, but now will. To all of you legally minded, whom I thank for your great help, a couple of questions: In following up on Nathan Slobodkin's concern about shops with consignments folding and following up on David Burgess's suggestion of using the consignment agreement, would the following language in a consignment agreement help the consigner in a bankruptcy or closing of business? Would it be a permissible part of a consignment agreement, and would it be enforceable? Proposed addition to consignment agreement: "Prior to the dealer ending ownership of their business or prior to the dealer beginning the process of declaring bankruptcy, the dealer agrees to return to the consigner the consigner's property or its fair market value." Another legal question: Does becoming a "secured creditor" guarantee the return of the instrument if not yet sold or, if it is sold, payment of its fair market value? Does becoming a "secured creditor" offer you anything more than being in line before the "unsecured creditors"? In other words, if becoming a "secured creditor" does nothing more than put you closer to the front of a long line, then it sounds like being a "secured creditor" might leave you with nothing more than a few more pennies on the dollar than being an "unsecured creditor" gets, especially if the instrument has been sold, and there is no longer an instrument to return.
  15. skiingfiddler

    Craig Tucker, in rememberence.

    The lesson Craig taught me in his posts and exchanges was to offer and assume good will toward people you talk to, to share honestly, truthfully and thoughtfully as best as you can. The goal is not to win arguments, but to assume best intentions in exchanges and offer one's best intentions. Thanks, CT, for that much valued lesson.