David Beard

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Everything posted by David Beard

  1. There's equally no basis for your claim that the all tops significantly changed from their initial character of shape.
  2. It took longer than I anticipated to get back to this. OK. We're considering Burgess's hypothesis that characteristic flattish stretches in Old Cremona and Old Italian and generally much or most pre-modernization violin making didn't start that way, but was carved originally with more continuous curvatures rather like the backs, and that the flattishness and associated extended height of these long top arches was primarily acquire by distortion from string pressure over time. Let's start by noting that this hypothesis solves a problem that doesn't need solving. There is
  3. Hogo, there is no question that some distortion occurs. David, I believe your experiment. And I've been aware of it for many years. The question is 'are these distortions the cause of the classical ling arc shapes?' I still say no. The distortions you point to are consistent enough or extensive enough to be the cause. I don't have time today, but sometime in the next 36 hours I post some about some of the specific the lead me to believe simple distortion is insufficient to be the cause of those classical shapes.
  4. Remember, this distortion somehow magically but accidentally transformed every Cremona arching into the well formed range of archcungs that the world now covets. And, of course, since this instruments were adooted as the best quite soon after their making, they were coveted before, during, and after this magical transformation.
  5. The notches are not meant to be square. The obtuse shapes helps when it comes time to detach the blocks. This also applies to both end block cutouts. The sides of those notches are meant to be obtuse. AND, the bottoms of those notches aren't supposed to be unbroken. Drill a few holes straddling those lines before cutting them. This way you have a few pry points when its time to separate the blocks from the molds. The horizontal lines etched on the classical molds connecting between corner notches are also not random or pointless. These help guide you in restoring worn notches l
  6. In Cennini's time, Florence 100 yrs before Andrea Amati, artisans apparently commonly made some of their own glues. And they had a clear awareness of different kinds of glue. He describes bone and fish glues as the clearest, hardest, and most brittle. And he describes a parchment glue as made from scraps of the pig skin parchment. The process he gives is simple and straightforward. Cook the material down to create a gelatin. Cook further to remove more water. When the gelatin begins to set but hasn't dried hard, cut the gel into thin pieces or cakes of a usable size. Let these
  7. Yes. There are a number of testable details. If Burgess's hypothesis were correct, certain parts of the plate have been pushed down, certain parts have been pushed up and out. And certain parts have been stretched. Also, there's the very interesting question of how the center of the plate can be depressed enough to distend the far reaches of the long arch, while the center area cross archs don't seem to have absorbed anywhere near that degree of depression????? David, notice that in your photo the plate distortion is barely equal to a plate thickness. But, to explain some classi
  8. Ok. Sorry I didn't read you correctly. That's good. So at least we agree that 'strongly engineered' isn't the universal end goal. But, I urge you to reconsider if you truly think the distortion you point to can actually be sufficient to explain the full range of Old Cremona examples, and the related details. I say no.
  9. IF... What is most desirable IS the question at hand. Perhaps your assumption that the strongest shape is most desirable is just that, an assumption.
  10. We both agree that some degree of distortion occurs. But you have often pointed to such distortion in the context of 'this is why the classical instruments have a long flattish part in the tops'. There's a big between 'plates distort some', and 'plate distortion' is the total cause of the classicsl Cremona plate shapes we see today. You've never made even a weak case that one thing gives the other. You have only ever demonstrated that 'some distortion' occurs. As far as I know, no one disagrees with that. But your leap to claiming that alone shaped the classica
  11. Well, at least in that long arch choice. That instrument shown is 1894. In late 1800s, many people are copying Cremona examples, but mostly with different modernized means. And the aren't necessarily copying every feature of the old instruments. Some more than others. My point is that which instruments show a long flattish top is much more about who made the instrument than about when.
  12. So, David Burgess seem to be proposing that not only does the soundpost and bridge cause various kinds of minor distortion in top plates as an instrument ages, but that this is 'The Reason for the Flattish Stretches' in classical Cremona tops. Is that long top arch shape carved by the maker, or merely age and distortion?? So let's examine this proposition. The first part of this is the idea is that distortion and aging rather than the makers original carving give us the flattish portion we now see in classical long archs. Because the bridge and post can cause some distortio
  13. Purfling splices with a simple blunt cut are common enough in classical Cremona work in the shoulders of the main bouts, or near the end blocks. But in the very conspicuous cBouts is certainly not so common.
  14. Bluster and joke for your defense. Examining the existing evidence does not support your position.
  15. Didn't do what you are assuming. Look at Lupots versus Vuillaumes from around the same time. The Vuillaumes built without a long flat still don't have one. The lupots build with a long flat do. Also, consider geometry. Yes, wood readily distorts in ways the flex. It does not readily in was the stretch surface area. The geometry of archs with the long flat and the kind arching seen in the real examples has an expanded surface area compared to the arches with a short flatish area. The kind of distortion you take refuge in would be a flexure from the original shape, but substa
  16. Look directly at examples. There are hundreds of images of classical Cremona instruments available. There are plenty of good side views. And there are xRay CTscan cross sections in a few cases. Look for yourself. The principle issue with classical c Cremona long arcs is the extended flattish area of the top's. This is the main difference from top to back, and from instrument to instrument. And, a caveat in examining classical instruments, Guadagnini does work within the Cremona traditions and methods. What he does is different in many cases. So, consider Guadagnini a
  17. As you are basically poinuing out, It's important that a proposed 'understanding' of a classical feature account both for what is consistent across the generations of classical making, as well the full range of variations seen across the families and generations of old Cremona making. If you care to check, you will find the solutions I propose do both.
  18. My best guess is that your diagram is a post fact attempt to analyze and example of real classical sides, but several generations after Stradivari's time. I would say the analysis was by someone who knew they worked the shapes with circles, but not how, nor at what stages of work. The sides are assymetric as happens naturally in classical work, but the application of circles is only 'almost'. And partly that's because the sides are never worked directly as circles. The mold is worked in circles BEFORE the sides are made. And the plate outline is worked in circles AFTER the sides
  19. It's very simple to work the kinds of long arches seen in classical examples without recourse to templates.
  20. I would say major changes in size or ratio of bouts are not 'small changes' to the outline.
  21. Visually, small differences in the outline can matter. And small differences can change the visual character from a geometry of circles arcs that are slightly assymetrically located to something different and non-classical. But, I don't think small differences in the actual outline have big impacts on function at all. And, particularly if relationships between outline and soundholes track along with the changes. It's the basic shape character of things like the edges and the plates and soundholes within the outline that matter more to functionality. IMO
  22. It's an interesting approach. Who knows what you'll manage to tease. One challenge question though. Why do you think that diagram is actually Stradivari's work?? That's a tall assumption.
  23. Look to boat building for analogy. Before our more modern approaches of innovation and engineeering, designs to processes like food culture or preparing art materials greaatly relied on repetition within the prevailing tradition. Development of such traditions, like how to culture a particular cheese in a particular town, or how to bake and yeast a traditional bread, might perhaps best be viewed as a form of 'cultural evolution'. So, in many situations, part of the tradition might be about using specfic processes, but other parts might be more about straightforward imitation of a tradi