baroquecello

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Everything posted by baroquecello

  1. Well first of all, they don't Need to be made from the same type of Wood at all, from a structural Point of view, it is a purely aesthetic consideration. The stiffness of the neck supposedly influences the Sound and playing chacteristics. There are makers that improve the strength of the neck by adding dowels of various possible materials, including Carbon fibre, and report that the Sound and playing characteristics seem to improve. I believe some are here on the board. Stiffer seems better, I believe.
  2. @Jerry Pasewicz and @nathan slobodkin, I think this is highly interesting! I am a professional Player and as you can see from my comments, it is a Nathan sais, that I'm not Always sure what makes a certain Instrument easy to Play and others not. That said, my gut instinct here is with Nathan. I Change the Position of my knees relative to the Cello regularly, Change the length of my end pin regularly, sometimes even during one rehearsal. I also Play baroque Cello without an end pin and have several ways to hold a Cello there. Holding it the same way all the time is in fact not healthy for the back, which Needs a Little Change every now and then. I therefore cannot imagine the relation between the neck and the lower bout to be very important at all. What does have a very direct Impact on the ease of playing is how "far away" the a string is, bow wise, and how easy it is to get over the top shoulder of the instrument. On a low overstand, the top shoulder Needs a lot more working around it. I would guess that a higher overstand for the a string comparatively would help get the Hand Palm away from the shoulder of the Cello, making the required arm movement to get into the higher positions smaller.
  3. Well,this is where it gets interesting! the line (I'm assuming the pencil line) is clearly very tilted towards the c string. The tilt is so much I would expect the bridge height of the c and a strings assuming no distortion of the body) to be practically identical. Is that correct? I'm asking because I think I've only once in my life seen a cello that had sort of the same height for c and a strings, and I thought it was a mistake. I'm wondering wether this is something that is not done in Europe? I am a professional Player, by the way, so I do have some experience what cello is concerned...
  4. Thanks everyone for helping me understand this better. @Jerry Pasewicz from your last sentence I take it, there are indeed two kinds of ew York neck reset, meaning the name refers to two different practises at the same time, the one being the neck pull back and shim type, the other the more comprehensive one you Mention here, which seems to me to be nothing else but a "proper" reset, with all the necessary Adjustments (which I take it may include a clavette, a shim under the fingerboard for adding poiriette, possibly even a new neck or top block, if the situation requires it?). That does complicate Things, because now we cannot distinguish between the two. As to the poiriette, or neck tilt. Just to check if I understand this right. 1. We are Talking About the neck tilt that causes one side of the fingerboard to have a lower projection than the other. 2. this is done solely for the Purpose of playability, and not with the idea that it will, for instance, change the sound or response of the strings. 3. it is achieved by tilting the plane of the neck Surface to which the fingerboard is glued. You can see that easily if you measure neck overstand and compare the treble and bass side. 4. on violins, it is beneficial to tilt the fingerboard toward the treble side, so that the g string is more easily reached with the bow. On Cellos it is better to do the opposite, so that the a string can be more easily accessed with the bow, and the shoulder of the cello will be less in the way when shifting. Ine Thing I think is important for Players to know, is that the poiriette may not be apparent to you on first glance at all. On my own cello, the neck overstand at the treble side is About 21.5~22mm, and at the bass side 20~20.5mm the difference is About 1.5~2mm, yet the bridge is higher for the c than for a string. This is due to the lower string clearance over the fingerboard of the treble strings (on my cello 5 for the a string, 8 for the c string) compared to the bass strings, and possibly a small top Deformation (bass bar may cave in, in my case prob 1 mm, treble side may rise in time, in my case prob 1MM). On my cello, in spite of the poiriette, the bridge is 82 MM at the a string and 88MM at the c string, which to the Player makes it appear as if the tilt toard the a string is deliberate, whereas in fact a lot is done to minimise it. A question I have is how much poiriette is desirable. In the example of my cello, might a Little more be more comfortable or is this Pretty much ideal? I can imagine it also helps to get over the shoulder of the instrument to higher positions more easily, do you have any response on the part of Players regarding this?
  5. Thank you all for clearing that up! Glad to see it was my understanding that was correct. But a question remains from the conversation we had. The person I was taking to maintained that, for Cellos, it had to do with increasing neck overstand and increasing the projection of the a string relatively to the c string, so that the bridge would become more "centrered", equal in height for a and c strings. The idea behind this is that it would increase the load taken by the bass bar and decrease the load taken by the sound post (I find this unlikely). Supposedly this was developed by Morel. I've never seen or heard of this anywhere, can anyone shed a light on this?
  6. Recently I had a conversation with a fellow cellist and the Topic of neck reset came up. It turmed out, the other Player had a very different understanding of what the famed "new York neck reset" (I'm not even sure that is the way to call it correctly.) is, than I did. So I'm hoping to improve my undestanding of it. Can anyone comment on what this entails and why it is done, especially on Cellos (but info on violins is great too!). Thank you!
  7. I'm only an Amateur, and everyone here is really negative About your chances of repairing it. I don't really undertand why. All cracks look Pretty clean to me, so should be relatively easy to glue, but I'd think the bass does need to be taken apart almost completely, and all old repairs must be undone. I would not be surspsised however, if after cleaning it up (assuming it is all hide glue thatwas used), the cracks will be not that hard to glue together. They all seem to me like they are due to shrinkage of the top and back, which was under stress because the ribs and bracing didn't shrink along. You'll probably Need to replace the bracing, and shoten the ribs. It is a Long term Project, but if you have the space to store the Instrument while working on it, and it is a Hobby, then why not? it doesn't look impossible to me. But as I said, I'm only an Amateur and stil working on my first violin repair Job. I just hope my post will provoke some experienced People to react with advise.
  8. Stahlhammer are basically the same Thing, but they aren't what they used to be. Now they are made with carbon fibre rods, which may or may not sound as good as the old model. There are definite Advantages to this type of end pin. Personally, what I liked a lot when using it was that, because the pivoting point is closer to the Player, there is less weight on the chest of the Player than with a conventional end pin. I also liked the increased stability, as the pin is not so much prone to bouncing. So generally it makes playing the cello feel a lot easier, and as you know, such psychological Things can make a huge difference. I'm not a tall guy, but for tall People the effect will be even bigger. I do not currently own such a pin, but am contemplating installing one on my cello. I've heard good Things About the berlin sound-pin-system (google it, they have a german language site), but have not yet tried it out. It is very expensive but also has very convincing list of proponents. I do own their pin (the rod only) and use it wit a standard Bender bung, it is one of the best sounding Pins for my cello.
  9. Slightly dampen the inside, place it on a flat surface, place a weight just heavy enough to make the edges come down to the surface right on the highest part of the arch. Wait for two days. Every time I've seen such heavy distortion, it was with backs made of one piece, especially with unevenly figured wood. Joined plates seem more stable. Can anyone corroborate that impression?
  10. I agree with the Yita recommendation, but be sure to buy the M20 or T20. Much better Sound than the M/T19 ones. The Setup usually is ok, but a really good Setup with best grade Bridge will improve it still, however, you can wait with that if you are a beginner. You will Need a better set of strings, and the bow that Comes with it is also not good. the cheapest ok bow I know of are carbondix Carbon fibre bows.
  11. Well, actually, originally there existed the viola, which could either be da Gamba or da braccio, designating the Instrument Family. Then the word violino, small viola, came into use for the treble member of the da braccio Family, a word which then spread across Europe. Violone was a big viola and could be da braccio (a violin Family type Instrument, often something like a large Cello and tuned a whole step lower, w hich is what we nowadays refer to a bass violin, but h istorically there was not such a rigid, strict Systematic terminology ), or da Gamba, so a modern double bass is in fact a hybrid between the Gamba Violone (construction of the belly) and da braccio Violone (played without frets, strings tuned at only one interval apart). When solo Violone Repertoire started to come up after the Invention of wound strings, the small Violone, the violoncello had to be distinguishable by name also from its big brother. Violone started to be used more exclusively for 16-foot Register, but in orchestral Music the term Violone often still refers to big and small Violones till in the late 18th century. So a violoncello is a small big viola, not a small big violin. ; )
  12. Bass violin is a rather non-specific word used for mainly 8-foot register instruments before the term Violoncello appeared at the end of the 17th century. However, it was not uncommon even in the middle of the 18th century, depending on the language. So any instrument that nowadays called a cello was called a bass violin in earlier days. In other words, it doesn't help with the identification of the instrument. Btw, looking at it again, I doubt the f holes were enlarged.
  13. I just talked to a Violinist who was wildly enthusiastic. Any additional experiences with this since it ws last discussed?
  14. Without other alteration to the design I find them to look totally misplaced on such a model, and the result very ugly!
  15. I would say it is something germanic from the 18th century. Im curious what @jacobsaunders will think of it. A while back we discussed an oversize cello he has in his possession. Is this maybe similar?
  16. Apart from the Wood Import Thing, which I don't think is relevant for the 17th and early 18th century because there was enough Money in Italy at the time, the bow making that is still relevant for players nowadays developed when the glorious times for violin making in Italy were coming to an end, in the latter half or even 25 years of the 18th century. At the end of the 18th century, Italy had diminished as a cultural (an not only that) power, compared to the two centuries before. Before that, Italian bows were not any worse than bows from elsewhere.
  17. And I didn't bid! Is the winner of the auction on this forum?
  18. Well, it is not what I would call an attractive violin. But truth be told, I still have to see the first Yamaha Instrument that wasn't at least ok value for money. So I wouldn't be surprised if it actually is quite passable as a Beginners Instrument, and that their Claims of making a Laminate Sound ok are true.
  19. Wow, thank you for the replies! I see a lot of valueable Information here, but everyone seems to have their own idea About what is easy and what would be best for a beginner. I should have told you a bit more About my experience. I have no experience with oil varnishes at all, but I have some experience with shellac based varnishes on furniture. Mainly with a product that Comes pre mixed in alcohol, bleached or non bleached and with no other additives. I find that when I thin it, I can make rather thin layers and with many applications can achieve a fairly decent film. However, this has Always been on straight surfaces. Couloring the Wood I did with water based stains, but this doesn't work well on Wood with a lot of open pores, like the curved top and back of a Cello. I find that the shellack penetrated the end grain of the pieces of furniture I lacquered quite deeply, as visible through darkening of the Wood when unbleached shelleck was used, and also noticeable by how often I needed to apply shellack (About 4 times) to get a film comparable to that on non end-grain pieces with two application. so I'm a Little surprised that shellack is taken as a sealer, as I thought a sealer is supposed to seal end grain without Deep Penetration. Is there a good way to fill the pores more effectively than shellack, or am I too worried About he amount of pore Penetration? This was why I was considering the plaster of paris Thing, but I'm getting the Impression that it only works with oil based varnishes anyway(does it?). I have a similarly stripped worthless fractional violin back that I will use as a test drive for what I'm planning to do, so I hae some possibilities to Experiment. Thi is what I'm planning. For this Cello, I going with what I know how to do: a simple shellac varnish. I'll start off sealing with bleached shellac, then add color by using layers of unbleached shellac (yellow-brownish) and bleached shellac mixed with alcohol based stains. I'll Keep it every application rather thinned down, so the layers are thin and don't add too much of anything unwanted at once. I'll let you know how Things go when I'm done, (or if I decide I Need some help). Next time, I will try an oil based varnish. I quite like the sound of applieing varnish with the fingers, that must be fun to do!
  20. My pupils typically play on rentals until they buy 4/4th cello. With some it takes a bit longer, but usually they start caring about sound while playing a 2/4 cello. I have the impression that, the better the instrument they learn on, the sooner they will start caring about sound. Fractional strings have improved dramatically (larsen, eva pirazzi and even helicore all work well on fractional cellos) , so that in a good case, even 1/8th cellos can have a pleasant, and projecting sound. Recently, the parents of a somewhat advanced student decided to buy a 2/4 size cello instead of renting one, with a budget of 2500 euros. We found an ok cello for that money, but honestly I think that the quality you get for the same money in 4/4 cello averagely is quite a bit better.
  21. I love the new Addition to the description, which I'm not sure I am allowed to Quote here, but LOL! I think it is pure Genius!
  22. 16 years ago I was given a 1977 Hora Musik Instrumentenfabrik Cello, that has a newly made top (old one was crushed to pieces). So it really is the cheapest Kind of Student Instrument. It was originally coated with Nitro varnish (save the newly made top, which was never varnished), and I had the Intension revarnishing it. Taking of the nitro was a big PITA and has taken me, with large interruptions (studies, becoming a Father, buying a house etc etc), 17 years. I've decided now that it is time to clean up and finish the several unfinished Hobby Jobs lying around and want to do the revarnishing soon. After "washing" the Instrument using nitro-thinner, I started scraping it with scrapers and am now nearly done, save for the scroll (for which I will Need a set of smaller, new scrapers). Since this is never going to be a great Cello, but will be usable as an Instrument for early beginners, I want to finish it with something simple that doesn't Look terrible and doesn't harm the Sound too badly, is durable and easy to touch up. But I'm also just a hobbieist and would like it to be almost fool proof, and relatively easy to apply, since I never have a lot of time on my Hands. Two Hours a time is the most I get. What would you advise me to use? As I understand, the most Basic finishing Needs a Ground (preferably with a Little Colour and flame enhancing(?). Yes, after removing the nitro it turns out the Wood has a few Flames! They were invisible before), a sealer/pore filler (I was thinking of Roger Hargraves plaster of paris filler, which seems straightforward enough in application, allthough time consuming in preparation. Otherwise Maybe the often discussed sugar seal, or a coat of glycerine, or what About egg white?), and then the actual varnish (was thinking of something alcohol based, as it dries quickly which is good considering my limited time. Could shellac do the trick? I could imagine something that Needs very many thin layers would be better, because the mistakes can be leveled out in many applications. Is there a product you can recommend?) Looking Forward to your ideas!
  23. I would say it is a hydrogen-peroxide blondie, orginally a dark brunette. I think it is revarnished, there are some left Overs of dark varnish here and there, and all Things that could be somewhat sharp seem rounded, possibly by sand paper. I'm Voting for a re-built Saxon violin, ca 1860-1910, I find the f holes, in particular the shape of the wings and kidneys to be rather telling. Also, the scroll work, with its 6 o'clock fluting, looks markneukirchen-like to me. However, I'm thrown off by the inlaid saddle which doesn't seem to fit the Picture of a Markneukirchen fiddle. Also, the rib mitres do not look pre fabricated and filed off (the way one would expect them to be for Saxon work), as they don't extend all the way into the Corners. Though that could be something that was altered when the violin was rebuilt (cornerblocks added, rib Corners shortened, revarnished, in that order). That is a terrible Sound post fit! The market value of the violin, I think, doesn't really justify extensive repairs. Maybe the emotional value does. I'm not a lutier and am just trying to sharpen my skills of Observation, so don't take this too seriously. I'm very curious About what others will comment!
  24. @Tom Fid you bought this a while back, and I'm very curious about how it Plays and sounds. Could you tell us something About that?
  25. I think the Arpeggione doesn't Need to Sound out of tune. It Comes down to your skills at Tuning. Here is a recording that is not that bad: https://www.allmusic.com/album/der-arpeggione-mw0001856146 I believe there is more Repertoire, somehow I believe I heard Burgmüller wrote some stuff, and I wouldn't hesitate to search out Cello or guitar Music to arrange. If you Play Cello and guitar, or Gamba, I think it can be a fun Project. Also, one can use such an Instrument to accompany others in the way a guitar does. It has its place in history, even if it is obscure, and the Sound is probably not to everyones likening, adn I think original Instruments would probably Sound best with gut strings. The OPs Arpeggione doesn't look like the original Thing though. Is it something chinese? These chinese copies of "Fancy" Instruments are often just visual copies and Sound terrible.