
baroquecello
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Posts posted by baroquecello
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It sounds like a conundrum indeed! Have you checked if the bass bar is still firmly glued in? Has anything been changed recently, like string brand, tail piece, end pin? If so, have you tried reversing the change? I once had a top block come unglued under the top plate, while the ribs remained glued. It only showed when releasing the strings, the fingerboard at the bridge end had a lot of lateral movement. That did change the sound quite some.
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I'm looking at this on a cell Pphone screen, but from here it seems to me the top could be a replacement. It would explain the wood choice and the amateur f holes. On this screen it looks as if the ribs and back have some remnants of old varnish, while the top has only the revarnished coat. What do you think?
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I'm a professional cello teacher. I've asked help here as well, when in the market for an instrument. These are just thoughts based on my experiences with buying instruments.
35.000$ can and should get you a great cello of professional quality. There are many fine makers of new instruments that you can approach with this budget. If it is about the antiqued look, many will also offer antiqued instruments, although it usually comes with an extra price tag. The advantage of most new instrument is the services makers offer and some form of warranty on problems regarding the wood. Older instruments of this price vary greatly in all respects. A 100 year old german cello is not the same thing as a 250 year old english cello, but one could consider either an "old" instrument. Good bargains to be had are in the "almost old" categorie: makers who'se names are rather obscure nowadays, or have made a large amount of instruments, and whose instruments have not become collectors items yet. Usually 10 to 90 years after the maker deceased, after that the "old" bonus kicks in. Such instruments are often in almost mint condition and often made with high quality workmanship and materials, so one can be fairly certain they will not fall apart and be a reliable companion for a long time. Truely old instruments often have repairs, and in many cases were never as perfectly made as newer instruments. "truely old" instruments of repute and in almost unrepaired condition are hard to find, and usually a lot more expensive. It is very important to look at how well repairs were done. Some repairs can hold practically forever, but less well done repairs will come apart at some point. Also, an instrument with many repairs can get buzzes from hard to identify places and be a pain because of that, so such repairs should really be reflected in the price.
A couple of general thoughts. It is true that old instruments, unless they are damaged, usually do not lose market value. Newer instruments usually lose some of their value initially. Nonetheless, you should never buy a cello with the idea that you will recouperate all the money, let alone make a little profit in case of selling. Buy what you want to have and what you want to play on now, and only buy if you love the instrument. All, but particularly older instruments prices are subject to market forces. As such, an old instrument costs what the seller asks for it. If you buy an old instrument, and find out later that everyone seems to think the cello was worth substantially less than you paid for, that is your problem. Know that this risk is substantial. However, if such an instrument gives you great satisfaction playing it on a daily basis, maybe it doesn't matter that much, particularly if you play it for the rest of your life. I recently bought an old instrument that was rather steeply priced. But I love playing it, and at 40 years old, having played many instruments over the course of my cellistic life, to me that is worth quite something. I Think I will be playing it till the day I die.
Selling an instrument you no longer wish to play however, can be hard, but often it is necessary before buying an instrument you'd like to play. Considering that your son is still rather young, and usually people that young do not know very well what they are looking for in terms of sound and other playing characteristics, the chance is large that they will regret at a later stage the choices that were made when they were young. So I'm thinking it may be worth it to look in a lower price catechory, say 8000$, and, with the help of a professional player, select something that is unproblematic and sounds well and in the middle of the road regarding size. Such things can really be found, look at the video someone posted here. Save or invest the rest of the money for the moment on which your son will be more mature (for instance, at the end of his music studies, if he decides to become a professional) and really knows what he is looking for. Then spend the rest of the money on something that will be more or less permanent.
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4 hours ago, christian bayon said:
This one have copper inside the carbon tube, sounds better than the Titanium one from the same maker.
Oh, a wolf in sheeps clothing! Camouflage! It is cheating!
That does sound interesting, I've not tried, or even seen carbon covered metals yet. Do you happen to have the brand or makers name? -
44 minutes ago, christian bayon said:
It always depend of the instrument. I try the different material and model with the final customer ( like the strings)
Yes, you are right ofcourse, it depends on the instrument, and some cellos are not sensitive to the end pin at all. Still, if they are, in my experience, CF is always one of the least well performing end pins, sound wise (not comfort wise; the light weight is nice, but can also be had with aluminum, for instance). But of course, if you try out with the customer, then that is all that is necessary. Out of curiosity: have you really had any cello that you felt sounded better with a CF end pin than with another material? It would be interesting to me, also to know which brand that may have been (CF does probably not equal CF).
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Beatiful work, as usual.
I can't help but notice that the cello has a black end pin. If that indeed it a carbon fibre end pin, I strongly suggest you try out a different material for the end pin. I've never had a carbon fibre end pin work well for the sound. In my experience, practically any other material will do better than carbon fibre, what the end pin is concerned. (Tail piecs are another story alltogether) You are im Amsterdam, I believe, and I'm sure you have enough high level players around to try the cello. It will show in just a few seconds that CF is worse, when you do a direct comparison.
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5 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:
@Marty Kasprzyk I wasn't talking put of my ass, Marty. I have run across a few long stop violins and they virtually always sound better with normal stop and string length. Even normal good violins can be quite responsive to string length adjustments. Cellos follow the same trends.
We associate a certain sound with both and drifting from the standards drifts from those sounds. Short string has a definite sound and likewise for long.
This is an adjustment I consider with every instrument now, basically ignoring the f nicks when better results can be found otherwise.
I'm sorry, but I think that you are forgetting that strings are manufactured to suit instruments with a common/average string string length. Hence, instruments with an average string length will sound better than those with a different string string length. What you are doing is adapting the instrument to the string. If you play on bare gut and adjust the diametre, you will see that the correlation between string length and sound is not that strong (when it is about a couple of millimetres). The problem is modern string making, that forces instuments to standard string lengths.
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My experience with the red series strings is really not good. I don't think they play or sound like gut at all. The core is wound in some synthetic yarn, which I think is done in order to increase the friction between bow and string, but it loosened quickly. The response, in my opinion, is terrible. I have not tried the metallic wound lower strings, so cannot say anything about that. Still, for cello, I don't recommend them at all.
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3 hours ago, Michael Darnton said:
We just got another strange one in on a cello this week that I just started playing with. It's got a lot of holes drilled in from the side so that turning the pin changes the stiffness of the pin in different directions. The tip also spins and this is supposed to be an adjustable wolf eliminator. The few minutes I spent playing with it, it seems to work somewhat on both fronts, but I need to run tests with a competent cellist to know more.
It's a German product and the name is lasered on it, but I don't remember who makes it.
It is the Berlin sound pin. Rather popular in germany. I own one too, but no longer use it. There indeed is a difference depending on how you turn it. I've never been able to get the wolf killer to work for me.
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Interesting instrument. The pictures are too small to see enough details. The neck looks like a baroque neck, thick at the block end. It looks like it is old, but could it be that it has been revarnished? The rib mitres go all the way into the corners which looks like BOB construction. However the outline doesn't look like a bog standard 19th century markie to me at all. Mind you, I'm just a player, not a maker. But beter photos might yield better info. They are so small that I can't even detect what is the main topic: the saddle.
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Ridiculous pricing!
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@reg I completely agree that the claims here are extreme. As I wrote, I believe there is no universal best option, and I do not believe the claims in that direction made by cube acoustics. I can believe that it is a good product that will likely work very well for many cellos. But in my opinion, this is just one option amongst many, and certainly not the cheapest. But I have not tried this product.
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End pins can make a huge difference in the sound and response of some celli. I don't understand why some celli are sensitive to them while others are not, but there it is. However, there is no universal best solution. My impression is that most celli work a bit better with heavier end pins. I've had a baroque cello that clearly worked much better with the end pin, even if it was left inside of the cello and not used, so I never installed a baroque style end "knob", since it was not good for the sound. Carbon fibre end pins almost universally are not good for sound; in the worst cases, it becomes shrill and superficial. If the cello is unsensitive to the end pin, a CF end pin can feel more comfortable, but that is all the advantage I see. The end pin that worked best for me was my dearly beloved Mitsuke triple brilliante. I bought it when it was still 300 Euros, now it costs almost 500 Euro, and I've lost mine, so I'm very sad about that, but 500 Euros is simply too much. It is important to note that the length of the end pin also influences the sound in some cases. I suspect that it has to do with how much extends into the cello. Some differences are noticable to the player only, particularly those that have to do with string response, while others (like the one on that baroque cello) are very obvious to listeners as well. There are claims that the end pin influences the wolf tone, but in spite of quite some experimenting, I've never noticed any difference in that respect.
edit note: the end pin only starts influencing the sound if other aspects of setup are well done: good bridge and sound post with optimum contact, good strings and tail piece are all things that need to be very well done, before the end pin starts making a big difference. And in order to make a difference, the end pin bung needs to be properly fit and not sit too loosely. -
D is an unusual pitch for a wolf tone. On most 4/4 celli it is between e and f#. It is so unusual that the wolf resonator usually glued in doesn't come adjusted for that pitch. You should double check for anything out of the ordinary, like loose seams, badly fitting sound post, Bridge or even bass bar. You may be able to mitigate it through tail piece placement or choosing one with different properties. The end pin can also have an effect, as can the properties of the bridge, but unfortunately all of those effects are trial and error based, and no rule of the thumb can be given. Otherwise, the Krentz mentioned by Dwight is your best bet.
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Well, some cellos sound decidedly better with an end pin that protrodes far into the instrument. It could be the same principle, but tarted up a bit. Doesn't bender make metal violin end pins for acoustic reasons?
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Don' use chalk! It is terrible, it increases the wear on pegs and pegbox, and doesn't allow for smooth turning. Use properly shaped and cleaned (no wood dust from shaping the pegs) pegs and peg holes (the pegs need to fit well at both ends!), and peg soap, or traditional soap, or even just a little candle wax or antique wax. All in moderation! I recently broke a violin peg that had been chalked stuck when humidity was low. When humidity was high, the peg just wouldn't budge.
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6 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:
And if believe that, I have some dehydrated water that I could sell you at a very good price.
Oh, so that you don't accidently drink it when doing the dishes, right?
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He was (is?) an, in Romania, respected bow maker, for his good price/quality ratio. I met him once in 2003 I think and bought a Cello bow from him. In retrospect, it was a bit too stiff and heavy for my taste, and I sold it later on. Back then (20 years ago), I think I paid about 300 or 400 Euros for it, but it was a substantial improvement upon my 800 Euros Dörfler I was playing before that. Better wood, craftsmanship and playing characteristics. Prices for Romanian instruments have since risen markedly and I think you could sell it for similar prices as good student bows from Germany, for instance.
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Has anyone ever used this?
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I'm a professional baroque cellist. But I have to admit that I don't have the faintest idea where to get information that is rooted in sources from the 17th and 18th century on the topic of setup. I'm not only talking about bass bar size and neck angle, but rather about things like the bridge model, the bridge thickness, the sound post position, the tail piece (weight, thickness, size and placement) and also string diametre. I only know enough to know that I do not really know much with certainty. There seems to be a tendency nowadays to believe setup wasn't that different from modern setups after all, but sometimes one finds radically different opinions.
Today, I played a cello that supposedly is a Klotz (forgot which family member) from the 1770ies. It had a peculiar "baroque" setup: a huge and thick tail piece which looked like it had been cut out of a multiplex windowsill, a Stradivari model bridge which was thick, especially at the string end (I'd estiate 3 or 4 MM thick!), a sound post that stood at least 12 MM south of the bridge foot, a true Romberg (which is not flat under the c string, but hollow) fingerboard that was massiv ebony without underside fluting, and very lightly strung. 65 CM string length, so technically a 3/4 cello. I'd never have expected this cello to work well at all. But I was wrong. For me, this cello offered opportunities like I've never experienced. The sound was not loud at all (as I expected), rich and colourful (which I didn't expect), and very direct, with very immediate string response and incredible possibilities regarding articulation and therefore, timing (which I expected, but not this extreme). It required almost no weight in the right arm, but it nonetheless could withstand weight, which gave a lot of opportunity for couloring the sound. I imagine this has more to do with the weird setup than with the cello itself. I'm wondering where this kind of setup comes from.
So, the question is, does anyone know of any solid sources regarding the setup string instruments (regarding cellos in particular, but violins are also interesting), or of properly researched books on the topic that are not written with a certain ideal, but rather with a neutral mindset?
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I'm really just a spectator to this, because I haven't even started the plates of my first violin yet. But I thought a higher arching raises taptones, while a lower arching reduces them. Is that correct? Wouldn't initial high tap tones be a reason to adjust the arching by taking off wood from the outside, so as to lower the arch?
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1 hour ago, David A.T. said:
These aren't tool marks, but rather accumulations of coulored varnish, due to imperfect varnish application. It is fairly common to see these exactly there on cellos. I have never varnished a cello so do not know why this happens, (my guess is too hasty application of coulor in to thick layers, which then, because of the surface tension, accumulates at the edges of the f holes, but what do I know) but I come across a lot of cheap cellos and occasionally see this. I own a cello (a modern chinese 3/4) with this varnishing mistake.
As to the cello itself, @violins88 you can't seriously think any attribution can e made based on this one photo. Fluting of f-holes is really not that hard compared to the rest of the shaping of the cello top and doesn't take a lot of time for an experienced maker to do. The myths around this being a sign of good quality are many and are just that, myths. You come across this type of f-hole fluting on many cheap instruments as well. Personally, I think it is ugly unless done with restraint.
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I'm a pro Cellist and a Cello teacher. Don't buy your wife a Cello as a surprise. Price and playing quality are not necessarily connected, and you may end up buying a nicely made, good looking Cello that doesn't play well at all. It is completely unlike piano buying, where you can expect a certain model to work and sound a certain way. Also, throw overboard your preconceptions about what you are looking for. Well working instruments come from anywhere. Try before you buy is the golden rule when it comes to string instruments, and you'd do well asking an experienced players opinion on what you plan to buy. Good luck!
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8 hours ago, David Burgess said:
In the U.S. at least, the threat of a lawsuit, or an actual lawsuit can be used as both an intimidation tool, and a form of extortion, since even if the defendant prevails, they are likely to be out a lot of money due to the expenses of defending it.
If you haven't ever been through something like that, consider yourself lucky. I have.That is interesting! In the Netherlands at least (and I'm just asssuming it is the same in Germany, where I currently reside) the party that loses has to pay the expenses the party that won had. This is to prevent bs trials being used as methods of extortion.
Commissioning a new instrument: Edgar Russ or Luiz Amorim
in The Pegbox
Posted
Just buy what plays well. For that price, there are an awful lot of good makers around the world that you could choose from. Try out anything you can get your hands on and if something strikes you, visit that maker. Don't go just because of rumours or because of how well someone presents him/herself online. When trying out, always compare to an instrument you know; take it with you, even if it is not that great. Playing an instrument you know will give you information on the room you are in and even on your own state of being at that moment, things which would otherwise be not so clear to you.