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Totally agree. I don't think it's a particularly interesting line of discussion, only because it seems obvious to me how and when it was done. But it's ok that others disagree and I have no real desire to interfere with further exploration.

However, how much do we need to back track. Discussion of historical nailing should probably presume nailing and attaching neck to sides before presenting either to the back. This means there is no difficulty fitting the neck to both sides and back, because that just didn't happen. The neck was fitted to the sides alone. And with no precise concern for allignmemt.

However, how much do we need to back track. Discussion of historical nailing should probably presume nailing and attaching neck to sides before presenting either to the back. This means there is no difficulty fitting the neck to both sides and back, because that just didn't happen. The neck was fitted to the sides alone. And with no precise concern for allignmemt.

Haha, sorry I was feeling feisty last night. Of course we should continue to discuss it as needed.

Needless to say that when rehaired your bow will be about 4grs, heavier!

I hope I've understood what the fluting is. Do these photos suffice?

You are correct again. The rail is silver. I started to clean the one area and it is definitely tarnished and comes off black.

Yes, photos of blocks and linings would be helpful, especially if they can tell what sort of wood was used. How deep goes the scroll front fluting, to the very end or does it stop before?

I guess I’d just caution that a bow that works for your teacher may not work for you and vice versa. My teacher would never tell me not to get a bow because she didn’t like it. Her advice has always been, go with your gut…if it plays well in your hand it’s likely a good choice. Good luck

With this sort of mop (probably river oyster) I usually expect the rails. It looks as if it could be silver, what is relative rare to find, usually they used nickel for these even at silver mounted frogs. The head model could be a Pajeot copy, what could point toward a Knopf workshop which used this, but that would be highly speculative. Maybe it’s older than I assumed in the first place.

UPDATE - Thank you all for your valuable input. The quick "preliminary impression" from photos that Dmitry Gindin offers yielded the opinion that it isn't Italian. I also sent the photos posted here, plus photos of as much of the linings and blocks as could be captured on a cell phone camera through the F-holes to Geigenbau Benedek. They said they could rule out Hungarian origin. I think that means Austro-Hungarian. (Please let me know if anyone thinks that posting those photos here would help.) Next stop, probably dendro.

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I'm not entirely sure what we're discussing or why anymore, given that we know what kinds of nails (square) were used and what they looked like (CT scans). People were and are nailing necks for hundreds of years. There is nothing left to discover. So get out there and nail, screw, or mortise your necks on instead of flapping your jaws! Let's make some fiddles and money!

I haven't tried it but I would say that square, hand-forged nails are far less likely to split neck blocks provided the flat side of the nail is perpendicular to the grain of the wood it is being driven into.

You are correct. I just got out the magnifying glass and it does have a rail not very pronounced but it is definitely there. Good eye.

I do think there is quite a lot of skill needed to use nails well. This has nothing to do with violin making but In his book "Mechanick Exercises or the Doctrine of Handy-Works" first published around 1680, Joseph Moxon writes (pages 124-5) "There is required a pretty skill in driving a Nail " he goes on to say " A little trick is sometimes used among some (that would be thought cunning Carpenters) privately to touch the Head of the Nail with a little Ear-wax, and then lay a Wager with a stranger to the Trick, that he shall not drive that Nail up to the Head with so many blows. The stranger thinks he shall assuredly win, but does assuredly lose; for the Hammer no sooner touches the Head of the Nail, but instead of entring the Wood it flies away, notwithstanding his utmost care in striking it down-right." I have heard about a violin maker in the past being found guilty of the murder of another maker, I wonder if perhaps someone who thought of himself as a 'cunning' luthier was caught in the act of applying some earwax to the heads of another maker's carefully straightened neck nails and was then dealt a fatal blow with the hammer?

Hello, I have only nailed one neck on, when I made my lute, so I hope you don't mind me joining in this discussion, With nailed necks, I am inclined to think that the glue is doing the main job of holding the joint, the nail of course adds some reinforcement but to me its main purpose seems to be to act as a clamp when gluing up an awkward shape, especially if the neck heel was nearly fully shaped? The nails would allow this awkward clamping job to be done in a simple - no jigs or special clamps needed - quick and traditional way. I think that it would be bit difficult to get the neck to fit nicely to the both top rib surface and the button of the back during a speedy gluing and nailing operation so it makes sense to me that it would have been done before the back was fitted. When I glued my lute neck I applied the glue then hammered the nail home. I then had a few of seconds to finely adjust the neck with a few gentle taps of the hammer, as it had rotated a bit out of line during the 'operation'. I would think also that the hole would be predrilled carefully until the nail only needed tapping home the last few mm, firm enough to hold the joint while the glue dried and add a little strength. If the hole wasnt predrilled carefully I suspect that a nail, or several nails could easily split a small short object like a neck heel especially in relatively hard and not spongy wood like maple? I wonder if the sharp spikey tipped nature of the nails could be used to advantage, maybe the pre drilling could be done not quite to full depth so the thinnest -least likely to cause splitting - last few mm of the nail could have a really good hold on the wood? When I nailed my neck I used the actual nail to ream the predrilled hole to its final depth and shape but if I did a lot of neck nailing I would think I would soon acquire a square sectioned awl/nail hole reamer of a similar shape and size to my nails of choice.

I think it clearly has.

well I should have search on here more, there are some old thread on refining LO. And here's a good youtube video I found.

I have to laugh, I thought the same thing at first glance. I had to put my glasses on and it does not have a rail.

The frog with the double pearl ring is typical German, I'm also thinking I can see the rails at the pearl slide..

Yes, one can be confident that it started life about double the size

oops! I had to read my answer a couple of times to see the error you are pointing out. I of course meant to say “something you never see in Mittenwald violins”.

Jacob, Has the back button been trimmed?